There's no such thing as motivating someone?

[Xander]

Whilst speaking to my father last I asked him his thoughts on the whole motivating INTJs problem. His response set me thinking.
"In the final analysis there really is no such thing as motivating someone... People motivate themselves."

Now I've thought about this for a while I have to wonder, is this really true or is it merely an NT twist to the reality and only really relevant to definitions and concepts or is it true in practice?

 

[CzeCze]

It's all about POV, after a point all questions like these become semantics. Or maybe like a koan. Or in other words rhetorical.

 

[Xander]

It's all about POV, after a point all questions like these become semantics. Or maybe like a koan. Or in other words rhetorical.

I see what you mean and yes I reached the same conclusion before but now that I think about it the answer is unsatisfactory.

It is not true to say that there is no way to motivate someone but it is true that they motivate themselves. Us not knowing to what degree there is an effect or how it works biologically or some such is evading the point.

Mind you though I get to research what the hell 'koan' is now

In regard to semantics, I came round to thinking that it's not really the definition of words which causes the problem but more the limitations we place on reality. I'll explain...

The whole "there is no way to motivate someone, they motivate themselves" you could say was merely arguing over what is motivation but I find it's more than that. We don't see it as possible to motivate someone (unless via brainwashing) as it would disturb our concept of what we are and how much effect external influences can have upon us.

I can see though how that could just be deliberately losing the constraints pon a subject to make it more interesting... that's been done before

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Whilst speaking to my father last I asked him his thoughts on the whole motivating INTJs problem. His response set me thinking.
"In the final analysis there really is no such thing as motivating someone... People motivate themselves."

Now I've thought about this for a while I have to wonder, is this really true or is it merely an NT twist to the reality and only really relevant to definitions and concepts or is it true in practice?

Heh that's like saying that you can't influence a person. No you definitely can influence people. They make the decision, but everyone can be influenced.

 

[Xander]

Heh that's like saying that you can't influence a person. No you definitely can influence people. They make the decision, but everyone can be influenced.

Exactly. However the choice of being influenced is with the person who you are trying to influence to some degree. Hence the confusion.

 

[Economica]

Exactly. However the choice of being influenced is with the person who you are trying to influence to some degree.

I'm not a believer in free will, so I say it's not about choice, it's about the ability of someone else to importantly influence the person's incentives. A prerequisite for that is of course understanding the incentives that move the person. That might explain why INTJs, governed by the hidden and highly subjective Ni, can be hard for others to motivate. (We're easy as pie once you figure us out though. )

 

[Athenian200]

Whilst speaking to my father last I asked him his thoughts on the whole motivating INTJs problem. His response set me thinking.
"In the final analysis there really is no such thing as motivating someone... People motivate themselves."

Now I've thought about this for a while I have to wonder, is this really true or is it merely an NT twist to the reality and only really relevant to definitions and concepts or is it true in practice?

It makes sense, in a way. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Basically, you can encourage someone, but you can't really motivate them to get it done. Ultimately they have to decide on it, and find the energy to do it on their own.

 

[Xander]

I'm not a believer in free will, so I say it's not about choice, it's about the ability of someone else to importantly influence the person's incentives. A prerequisite for that is of course understanding the incentives that move the person. That might explain why INTJs, governed by the hidden and highly subjective Ni, can be hard for others to motivate. (We're easy as pie once you figure us out though. )

Hahahahahahaha.
INTJ...easy...does not compute. Error.

Easy as in what? As in comparison to a Herculean task? I'd consider it about the same

It makes sense, in a way. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Basically, you can encourage someone, but you can't really motivate them to get it done. Ultimately they have to decide on it, and find the energy to do it on their own.

Ah but by moving that horse to the water are you motivating it to drink? I think so..at least in some part.

Well unless it's an INTP horse in which case it knows you moved it there to try and motivate it to drink and as such will now die of thirst before it falls to your wicked manipulation

 

[Economica]

Hahahahahahaha.
INTJ...easy...does not compute. Error.

I said once you figure us out.

 

[Totenkindly]

Maybe it's a two-way street?

 

[Xander]

I said once you figure us out.

Oh I see. First you have to do the Herculean task of creating the Rosetta stone for that individual and then it's more downhill.

You do also say that "Hell is other INTJs"

What you ran out of stone?

 

[Xander]

Maybe it's a two-way street?

Yes don't worry you can walk away from the water. Just don't expect the other person to be altogether comfortable with your decision.

 

[Economica]

You do also say that "Hell is other INTJs"

I do, but that's a different problem.

(I really should get around to writing that 'The deal with my signature' blog post... In the meantime, those who are interested might want to check out this thread.)

 

[Xander]

I do, but that's a different problem.

(I really should get around to writing that 'The deal with my signature' blog post... In the meantime, those who are interested might want to check out this thread.)

Interesting.. however it would appear to be part of the same problem..well let's just say it's root cause is possibly the same thing.

To motivate someone you must put forth the idea that there is something desirable there which they do not have yet. If they are right and in exactly the situation they meant to be then how can you even begin to suggest that they may find it better if they repositioned themselves (ie motivate them)?

 

[Night]

I guess it really depends on the stimulus and/or the desired conclusion.

Motivation to achieve basic survival is a different pathology than motivation to succeed at, say...backgammon.

 

[Economica]

To motivate someone you must put forth the idea that there is something desirable there which they do not have yet. If they are right and in exactly the situation they meant to be then how can you even begin to suggest that they may find it better if they repositioned themselves (ie motivate them)?

You can't. Understanding what makes a person tick is not enough; it's just the prerequisite. You also need the ability to importantly influence the incentives the person faces.

I would provide an example but I have a feeling we will be more productive if you provide it?

 

[Totenkindly]

To motivate someone you must put forth the idea that there is something desirable there which they do not have yet. If they are right and in exactly the situation they meant to be then how can you even begin to suggest that they may find it better if they repositioned themselves (ie motivate them)?

Oh neat -- it's Reverse Motivation! (i.e., you want to motivate someone else, and instead they're just motivating you!)

Honestly, some types might be less transparent than others... but communication overcomes those sort of issues. Even with INTJs and INFJs.

The ones who want to be understood and known are usually more than willing enough to come halfway.

 

[Xander]

You can't. Understanding what makes a person tick is not enough; it's just the prerequisite. You also need the ability to importantly influence the incentives the person faces.

I would provide an example but I have a feeling we will be more productive if you provide it?

I think you skipped a few steps in your relaying of your thoughts there. I think I got it but forgive me if I err.

Were I to wish to convince Mr Sour that it was worth continuing with a certain project despite others in the project seeming to have given up on the idea (doing this in the full knowledge that one of those people will never give him what he wants, another cannot give him it and the last is at the moment seeming to come around to the idea but is prone to going off things quite quickly and drawing a line under them (another J)). Now Mr Sour was up for the whole idea at the start, I have remained positive and enthusiastic despite his slap downs (the whole INTJ testing the boundaries thing really hurts some days) but others have waned as the project is complex and requires effort on their part. Now Mr Sour's lifestyle is interfering (his health too though not in major hospital type ways) the project is requiring more of him, temporary though this may be, and his enthusiasm is flagging.

Now usually I can help shore up someone's enthusiasm with my own but he would resist this and more than that I'd lose his respect by going all "emotional". It's a guy thing in part I'm sure.

Anyhow I could try to show him that his position is wrong but how can I if he's right? He's always right and he's certain of it. If he loses interest in this project then it will die as he is central to it and if he wanes too much then the steel girder of decision will fall and all will be crushed beneath it.

I have known this guy for like four or five years now. I took him to buy his new car. He turns up sometimes in his running gear which believe you me you'd have to trust someone to be seen dead in! Now I presume this all means that I'm an accepted part of life though probably not part of the inner circle (I think only he and his wife are in that part and I'm not sure about the second person!!) but from my side I still have no clue what would actually help gee him up and motivate him to weather these current set backs. To put forward the idea that things aren't as bad as they may seem just seems to end up in an argument that boils basically down to he has weighed, measured and counted the circumstances and that I'm wrong. This is obviously not going anywhere positive.

 

[Xander]

Oh neat -- it's Reverse Motivation! (i.e., you want to motivate someone else, and instead they're just motivating you!)

Honestly, some types might be less transparent than others... but communication overcomes those sort of issues. Even with INTJs and INFJs.

The ones who want to be understood and known are usually more than willing enough to come halfway.

And the ones that don't you just give up on?
What about the one's who would come half way if only life had shown them the advantages of such an approach?

 

[Economica]

I think I got it

You did.

First of all, whose idea was this project? If not his, why did he come on board in the first place? If you can identify the moment when you saw his eyes light up and the wheels start turning in his head, you have a pretty good clue as to his motivation.

What has changed since then? (I doubt it's the temporarily extra high workload. INTJs are oxen when we believe in a project.)

He turns up sometimes in his running gear which believe you me you'd have to trust someone to be seen dead in! Now I presume this all means that I'm an accepted part of life

Not to burst your bubble, and I won't tell you why I say this, but I wouldn't put too much stock in the running gear thing.