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  1. #91
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    "societal compatibility issue" - sounds very George Orwell-ian.
    Time for a rant...

    We in the Anglosphere have propagated this conceptualization of E. A. Blair which doesn't stem from the guy's philosophies at all, but rather a framing of those ideas by those associated with Reagan and Thatcher. For one, Orwell was a committed democratic socialist until the day of his death (forgive me if I'm just repeating things you already know), and as such, generally supported collective policies. What he did not support was the use of language and propaganda to consistently lie to the citizenry in order that they support the actions of the government which were contrary to their own interests.

    As a socialist, Orwell understood that there were some things that a person was just going to have to put up with, even with personal reservations, for the benefit of all. What he didn't tolerate was the imposition of restrictions simply for the reinforcement of the powered elite, nor the use of memes to enforce these restrictions.

    Medication to function well within the reality of the modern post-industrialized state, something that is highly unnatural given our cognitive evolution, seems to be one of those things that are of the former category. Not only that, but it comes down to the question of choice: you can always simply not take your pills.

    Co-ordination issues are P related I beleive.... seen a few write up with links to that. My dysleixia means I've got wroten hand eye co-ordiantion, actually there is a school of thought that says if kids with dyslexia do hand eye work outs it helps with the whole thing.
    I've heard the same. Would be interested to see the numbers.

    I was meaning UK parenting styles... we've gone from a driven - acheivement orientated style - promoting values of advancement, into parents just wanting kids to be happy.....which is causing motivation issues.
    American (middle-class) parents are very achievement-oriented (contrary to the stories of woe often portrayed on TV, which serves merely to freak people out and keep them watching), and we still have similar issues. I still think it's just an issue of kids being kids.

    Changes is discipline at home and at school are causing other issues on top of this that are more behavoral. The overly nurturing nanny style is preventing kids having learning experiences and to an extent supporting childhood obesity (ofering childen choices in foods etc). It's a mjor concern here... :o
    I honestly think that such reports are just to keep the punters mad at their TVs, and as such still watching. Has there ever been a period in history where someone wasn't complaining that the current generation of children was being mollycoddled?

    Wooops we are totally off topic now ... woops
    Best place to be

  2. #92
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Not notice anything suspicious about those sample sizes at all? Absolutely sample size of c.5700, then spikes to 9000 and it really is all over the place after that.... will pick my way through the wider report, but the reporting is B-A-D.... I'm not saying that the N theory doesn't hold true....
    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post


    Just wanted to screw around with the table a bit - maybe I got it wrong.
    I basically meant it as a reply to Marm's post:
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    LOL so you are doing analysis on highly questionable data? What the point?

    Also the sample sizes are different so dividing one against another is bogus... (but thats my j-ness coming out - and I don't have a lot of it)...

    Sorry will shut up, dont' get what you are trying to express, but I'm pretty sure the data in the research needs more explanation to be able to draw very much from it...
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    and this is the proportion of gifted kids as a percentage of the whole sample

    ENFP 5%
    INTP 4%
    ENTP 4%
    INFP 3%
    INTJ 3%
    ISTJ 2%
    ENTJ 2%
    INFJ 2%
    ENFJ 2%
    ESTJ 1%
    ESFJ 1%
    ESTP 1%
    ISTP 1%
    ISFJ 1%
    ESFP 1%
    ISFP 1%

    Bottom line xNxP are bright....

    Gifted sample = 4828 = which is the column marked N = gifted
    Normative sample was 9320 as per the survey... still don't know what the gifted sample means
    Tinkerbell, so the study is valid as long as your type is somewhere near the top? :confused:

    Lol. These "What type is le smartie" discussions are so laughable.

  3. #93
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Well get busted eventually.....

    "Medication to function well within the reality of the modern post-industrialized state, something that is highly unnatural given our cognitive evolution, seems to be one of those things that are of the former category. Not only that, but it comes down to the question of choice: you can always simply not take your pills."

    Kida what I mean about Orwell-ian... not in terms of the politics, more contrained conformity... just as much Huxley too.... saw the dawning of control over individualisation.

    Yea every generation moans about kids education... in the same way kids blame their parents... but there are cycles in ecconomics... affluent societies flux into appathy due to lack of drive for the basic needs... too much causes lethargy....

    Personally I think we should bring back child labour.... good honest income.. pay there keep... chimneys are much safer these days.....LOL - I am of course taking the piss....

    I do think that we need to inject motivation in the UK, we seriously do not have the same culture as you guys... so apathy really can be a huge issue.... be interesting to see how it turns out.... given the population's top heaviness... which I beleive isn't the case in the US either... but I don't know

  4. #94
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Tinkerbell, so the study is valid as long as your type is somewhere near the top? :confused:

    Lol. These "What type is le smartie" discussions are so laughable.
    No, not at all, which was my point about 10 post back...

    we have c.4000 gifted children - WTF? 9000 in the normative sample.... is that a uneuqe sample that is independant form the gifted

    I put the lists together because I got horribly picky with AVID, so I thought I'll do what he wanted to see - the longer way that is more accurate...

    No amount of analysing bad data will make it right...

    It may still be valid data but I coulnd't see the definition of gifted, if it was independant of the normative and why table 3 (which I beleive is the REALLY wrong one) has more responces then respondents...

    All in all I'd say insufficient infromation to make the gifted sample valid for our purposes...

    PS: if we assume the gifted sample is valid... all it really says is the xNxP are more likely to be gifted....

  5. #95
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    All in all I'd say insufficient infromation to make the gifted sample valid for our purposes...

    PS: if we assume the gifted sample is valid... all it really says is the xNxP are more likely to be gifted....
    So the gifted sample is valid? Hmmm...

    All of these discussions seem like people seeing what they want to see because it gives them some sort of validation.

    This bears repeating:

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Considering that 'type' is something so intangible that there is no absolutely reliable personality test out there yet and therefore no reliable basic statistics, I really don't see how anyone can make any subsequent statistics, present them like facts and draw any conclusions from them.
    I test INTJ very frequently, yet I am not one. Same for my friend; tested ISFJ on the official MBTI yet is ISTJ. People mistype all the time. There is no way to reliably test type, so there is no way to start comparing that to "giftedness" (whatever that means) and other forms of intelligence.

  6. #96
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Well get busted eventually.....

    "Medication to function well within the reality of the modern post-industrialized state, something that is highly unnatural given our cognitive evolution, seems to be one of those things that are of the former category. Not only that, but it comes down to the question of choice: you can always simply not take your pills."

    Kida what I mean about Orwell-ian... not in terms of the politics, more contrained conformity... just as much Huxley too.... saw the dawning of control over individualisation.
    How much of that is an actual issue, and how much of that is tribalism? Individualism is very much a defining characteristic of Western society, and in particular, the societies of Great Britain and its former colonial holdings. In the context of when Orwell and Huxley wrote, when British democracy seemed incapable of handling the stresses of the industrial era, along with the loss of Empire, is it no wonder then, that writers of the period clung to that individualism? The Huxleys of 1938 and 1958 were very different writers, for sure.

    Yea every generation moans about kids education... in the same way kids blame their parents... but there are cycles in ecconomics... affluent societies flux into appathy due to lack of drive for the basic needs... too much causes lethargy....
    I can't help but think that we're in somewhat unmarked territory currently, as industrialization changed everything. As we deindustrialize, we're faced with a situation whereby scarcity for staples is essentially zero; however, demand for labor increasingly diminishes as technology increases. As such, in the UK, what does a working-class or middle-class youth have to strive for? Selling mobile phones? Going to university in order to become a glorified mobile-phone salesman?

    I do think that we need to inject motivation in the UK, we seriously do not have the same culture as you guys... so apathy really can be a huge issue.... be interesting to see how it turns out.... given the population's top heaviness... which I beleive isn't the case in the US either... but I don't know
    It's not that much different either - our class structure is simply different (since ours is much more racially oriented). Look at New York in the 1970s if you want to see an apathetic city. Meanwhile, we've still encountered the same structural issues, but tried to wave them away with huge amounts of debt. If anything, the only main difference is that we've still bought into the bullshit that there's an inherent value in any kind of work, no matter how menial it is... even though we talk out the other side of the mouth whenever we say something to the effect of "well, the world needs ditchdiggers too".

  7. #97
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    So the gifted sample is valid? Hmmm...
    No I didn't say that, I said right now the gifted sample is dubious... and undefined....therfore ought not to be used to draw inference from.

    IF is were valid, all that can realy be sumised from it is the NP thing...

    As for typing reliability, yes I have issues with that too, but there is no reason to assuming a higher or lower level of mistyping in either sample.... ie they are both likely to be wrong proportionately so...

  8. #98
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    No I didn't say that, I said right now the gifted sample is dubious... and undefined....therfore ought not to be used to draw inference from.

    IF is were valid, all that can realy be sumised from it is the NP thing...
    Right. And if the study were valid, INxxs round out the top four. What's the point in making either statement if both are questionable?

  9. #99
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Right. And if the study were valid, INxxs round out the top four. What's the point in stating either one if they are both questionable?
    what do you mean either? I don't know the two variables you mean? I added a bit to the above post



    IF the gifted sample is valid, there is a greater number of I's in it than the norm... gifted would be a realtively even spread between E and I, in the norm sample there is a skew towrds E types....

  10. #100
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    what do you mean either? I don't know the two variables you mean? I added a bit to the above post
    I edited that for clarity.

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