Decent female role models

[Xander]

In another thread Santtu made a comment about women lacking a decent concept of how to be powerful without being pissy. I figured there's a lack of decent role models for this behaviour. Women who have power and presence without gaining it or expressing it via beating others down. So I figured a thread discussing the various role models out there might be interesting as I can't think of more than a few women who have achieved an adequate amount of presence, confidence and relaxed alpha behaviour without putting others down.

Just to establish parameters, Joan Rivers is NOT a good example of a success. That's a fail. As is most if not all of the famous female singers. Mostly this is due to fame warping them and some underlying desperation. A good role model just is as they are, warts and all.

One example I plucked out of the air whilst musing this was Fay Ripley. Having seen her on Top Gear she seemed totally unfazed by the male dominated atmosphere and appeared relaxed and herself. Almost as if she accepted herself as "zany" even when she messed up she just laughed with everyone else and carried on happy to be the but of the joke as much as the joker.

But then I failed to think of any more concrete examples I'm happy with.

Any ideas?

 

[Antimony]

I don't model myself after people. I am a role model.

But other than myself, Marilyn Monroe. Anyone who sings happy birthday to JFK is my hero.

 

[Xander]

I don't model myself after people. I am a role model.

But other than myself, Marilyn Monroe. Anyone who sings happy birthday to JFK is my hero.

You think she was well "sorted" and a "switched on" kind of person?

Wow this is an up mountain problem!!

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Michelle Obama made an impression on me when I heard her speak because she has that strength. Amelia Earhart, Dian Fossey, and Jane Goodall are also inspiring. Sally Ride was a specific hero of mine when I was a kid.

Because of the historical role of lesser power for women in leadership and as intellectuals, I do especially cringe when a woman gains the spotlight and acts girlish, submissive, flirty, and at the same time bitchy. When a woman is in the forefront and clearly incompetent, it reflects more on "women" than when an individual man displays similar incompetence.

Edit: In the arts I especially appreciate the work of Germaine Tailleferre, Clara Wieck Schumann, Sylvia Plath, and Georgia O'Keefe for starters.

 

[Antimony]

You think she was well "sorted" and a "switched on" kind of person?

Wow this is an up mountain problem!!

Hahahaha no, I don't at all. But, she knew how to get what she wanted.

Honestly, I can't really think of any.

 

[compulsiverambler]

If we must have role models, I think Anita Anand would be a good one. She hosts the live TV show 'The Daily Politics' and is clearly highly knowledgeable and competent, asks relevant questions of guest politicians, never seems nervous and doesn't over-compensate by being too stiff, serious or going in the other direction and playing up to feminine stereotypes. She's completely relaxed, confident, professional and polite.

 

[Xander]

If we must have role models...

That's not really the issue. People shouldn't try to mimic and role models do cosset that behaviour but they also lead the attitudes of people. At the moment a calm and powerful woman would be thought of as a bit strange I'd reckon.

Because people have no known models to compare such people to at present (afaict) it seems a murky area fraught with accusations and false claims. Basically it's an area which seems to need a better framework of language and characterisations so that it can flower in depth meaning. At present you're either a butch dyke or some power shoulder wearing Joan Collins freak from the 80s! That's just ridiculous and, to my reckoning, more offensive than a pinched arse!

You need a female Churchill or something.

Okay I am thinking Helen Mirran now... does it matter that she's gay? Some how I think it does but in the narrower focus of personality I still think she's a good role model.

 

[compulsiverambler]

That's not really the issue. People shouldn't try to mimic and role models do cosset that behaviour but they also lead the attitudes of people. At the moment a calm and powerful woman would be thought of as a bit strange I'd reckon.

Because people have no known models to compare such people to at present (afaict) it seems a murky area fraught with accusations and false claims.

Hmm, yeah, that might be true.

 

[INA]

Well, yes. Let's have some male-sanctioned models of assertiveness for women to emulate.

 

[Xander]

Well, yes. Let's have some male-sanctioned models of assertiveness for women to emulate.

Knew someone would bring that up. You got two choices pal, you're either trying to enter the same game or you're making a new one to compete. Either way around requires sacrifice.

If you want powerful women to be treated the same as powerful men then they need to be the same. If not then what should be different? What's being sacrificed for what gain?

Anyway what's your suggestion for a role model? Destruction is easy, creation is the measure of a person.

 

[INA]

Knew someone would bring that up. You got two choices pal, you're either trying to enter the same game or you're making a new one to compete. Either way around requires sacrifice.

1. I'm not your pal.
2. What game is this? And what sacrifice is involved?

If you want powerful women to be treated the same as powerful men then they need to be the same.

The same what? The lesson of history is that "being the same" will get them called pissy. NOT being the same will get them called weak. It's a lose-lose proposition to follow what men suggest women should be like for any reason in this aspect.

Anyway what's your suggestion for a role model? Destruction is easy, creation is the measure of a person.

What have you created?

I have a model of my own design, and I suggest people find their own. I'm not in the habit of prescribing or laying down rules for other, non-Ina-related people to follow, and am suspicious of people interested in doing so.

 

[Xander]

Wha

I'm not in the habit of being dismissive but are you like twelve or something? You're basic assertion is that nothing can be created that will work so we shouldn't bother. Why do you breathe?

Please, either engage or disengage. Don't whine that you can't make up your mind.

 

[INA]

I'm not in the habit of being dismissive but are you like twelve or something? You're basic assertion is that nothing can be created that will work so we shouldn't bother. Why do you breathe?

And I assume from this stinging rebuttal that you are . . . five?

I would suggest you learn to exhale and then polish your reading and comprehension skills (or, as you would write, "you're" reading and comprehension skills).

Please, either engage or disengage. Don't whine that you can't make up your mind.

See above re reading comprehension. And please do not project the whining - it's all "you'res," pal.

 

[Xander]

And I assume from this stinging rebuttal that you are . . . five?

I would suggest you learn to exhale and then polish your reading and comprehension skills (or as you would write, "you're" reading and comprehension skills).

See above re reading comprehension. And please do not project the whining - it's all "you'res," pal.

I was just thinking enneagram when I read that first bit.

No. Quite the opposite really.

You can't have something with no frame of reference existing within a group of humans. You certainly can't try and give it a leg up.

Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
Power pads are just a ploy to make someone look bigger, a typical theory amongst those who don't have power.
The whole pissy thing comes from following the worst examples of male behaviour and usually results in a very poorly balanced person regardless of sex.
Aggression usually makes people fight and that gets into legal issues and the age old "you can't hit girls" which is another point of retardation.
Trying to be cute and clever may get you so far but then you're still the protected and never the protector which seems to be what all this stems from.
Trying to be cold and callous just loses you friends. It's not a form of leadership it's simply a form of denial and protection.
Trying to be objective is just anal retentive.
Trying to be loud is irritating and just makes it more obvious when you drop the ball.
Trying to create a female power stereotype in a generation or two to stand by itself is a mountainous challenge and will implode if handled wrong.
Self creation of an ideal is fine but then it's idiosyncratic and as useless as "why don't you just think like me, then you'd be fine".

Oh and pulling someone up on confusing a word... really?

Basically please do involve yourself in the discussion, you sound like you've got strong ideas. But if you want to piss on my camp fire then don't be surprised if I try and shove an ember or two some place uncomfortable.

Peace.

 

[INA]

I was just thinking enneagram when I read that first bit.

No. Quite the opposite really.

Clearly. You claim to be a 9, and I see no reason not to believe it that you're INFP.

Self creation of an ideal is fine but then it's idiosyncratic and as useless as "why don't you just think like me, then you'd be fine".

Well, this looks more like a legitimate discussion. Congrats on the progress.
But I did not mean that each person needs to invent herself anew. Nor that I had done so myself. Nor that any person I consider an emulable ideal is necessarily female.

I don't think idiosyncrasy is necessarily a bad thing. I do believe it's most useful - if/when a person is seeking a model - that each person tailor herself off aspects of someone she holds as an embodiment of her own ideals.
I find it hard to believe that women in the US or the UK for that matter cannot find women who exhibit fine, assertive leadership. What I think happens is that people (often, but not always men) will always find fault with these women, so women should not imprison themselves with the goal of finding a blameless example, because there are none. Though male assertiveness itself is less controversial, there's no one perfect model of male assertiveness. Part of this is that men do not open themselves up for such criticism by seeking female-approved models. This congratulation-seeking is another way women undermine real exercise of power. The smell of insecurity whets the appetite of would-be critics.

You may think a particular woman callous, or pissy, or whatever, but this very thing may work for some women as models. Given the inevitable criticism, all you can do is "shake 'em off" and do ongoing evaluation of how a particular tack fares in meeting set goals.

Oh and pulling someone up on confusing a word... really?

You were going the route of juvenilia, as five year olds are wont to do, so I thought I'd entertain you on that level.

Basically please do involve yourself in the discussion, you sound like you've got strong ideas. But if you want to piss on my camp fire then don't be surprised if I try and shove an ember or two some place uncomfortable..

Shove away. I doubt any lukewarm, noodly appendage you have could do more than tickle. But you're more than welcome to try.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Can we focus on actual female role models instead of derailing a potentially marvelous thread into a bitching session that no one wants to read except the two involved? Take it to the PMs :steam:

 

[Xander]

Okay I'm laughing now but Toonias right... we should really take our courtship to PMs or something...

Bring it

On a more thread based response...

I don't think idiosyncrasy is necessarily a bad thing. I do believe it's most useful - if/when a person is seeking a model - that each person tailor herself off aspects of someone she holds as an embodiment of her own ideals.
I find it hard to believe that women in the US or the UK for that matter cannot find women who exhibit fine, assertive leadership. What I think happens is that people (often, but not always men) will always find fault with these women, so women should not imprison themselves with the goal of finding a blameless example, because there are none. Though male assertiveness itself is less controversial, there's no one perfect model of male assertiveness. Part of this is that men do not open themselves up for such criticism by seeking female-approved models. This congratulation-seeking is another way women undermine real exercise of power. The smell of insecurity whets the appetite of would-be critics.

That's half the point of the thread. What's needed is a gamut of role models for all kinds of reasons so that people can pick and choose.

What I'm saying is bad though are those role models with obvious aggression issues which is 90% the pissy ones. I think sarcastic female role models are great but those with obvious campaigns which they are trying to rain (reign?) in their anger over.

The same guidelines are afforded for both species. It's not like I differentiate.

If you have better parameters then please do suggest but I think there has to be some kind of parameter otherwise instead of creating a model you're creating the absence of a model which means an absence of a framework. That's just freefall into nothingness.

You may think a particular woman callous, or pissy, or whatever, but this very thing may work for some women as models. Given the inevitable criticism, all you can do is "shake 'em off" and do ongoing evaluation of how a particular tack fares in meeting set goals.

This was what I was referring to when I mentioned fame as an influence. Some potentially decent female role models have had too much publicity and pestering from the press. Now they're bitter and cynical. That's not something that most people would see as beneficial to strive for.

It is a shame as in many cases very capable women have been pestered by small minded press people and have ended up as the husks they are now. Kind of spoiled by the very machine which they could have been used to resist.... okay that sounds wrong but the concept is there....

 

[Lux]

In my opinion Eleanor Roosevelt is a good female role model. She was intelligent, tough, kind, and she did it all with elegance.

 

[INA]

What I'm saying is bad though are those role models with obvious aggression issues which is 90% the pissy ones. I think sarcastic female role models are great but those with obvious campaigns which they are trying to rain (reign?) in their anger over.

And what I'm saying is it doesn't matter if you think they are pissy. I'd be shocked - shocked! - if the ones you think are pissy are not held as ideal models by some other women. Women in power invariably draw such criticisms.

If you have better parameters then please do suggest but I think there has to be some kind of parameter otherwise instead of creating a model you're creating the absence of a model which means an absence of a framework. That's just freefall into nothingness.

I gave my view on parameters.
How have women managed not to free-fall into nothingness absent their model prisons so far? They must be geniuses.

This was what I was referring to when I mentioned fame as an influence. Some potentially decent female role models have had too much publicity and pestering from the press. Now they're bitter and cynical. That's not something that most people would see as beneficial to strive for.

Decent is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't believe people have to resort to famous people as models. Unless fame is the goal . . .
I do believe the terms "bitter" and "cynical" are terms over-used by people who do not like the views of the purported bitter and cynical person but are impotently driven to grasp on to some wounding criticism.

It is a shame as in many cases very capable women have been pestered by small minded press people and have ended up as the husks they are now. Kind of spoiled by the very machine which they could have been used to resist.... okay that sounds wrong but the concept is there....

Who are these women?
And what model would you have suggested for them to not become the "husks" they are now? How could they have striven to make it better?

In my opinion Eleanor Roosevelt is a good female role model. She was intelligent, tough, kind, and she did it all with elegance.

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
“Women are like teabags. We don't know our true strength until we are in hot water!” - Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[Laurie]

I agree with toonia, this thread is an interesting thread. And I can say that because I'm a woman.

I'm not a history buff at all but what about women sufferage? Susan B Anthony?

I always thought that Amelia Earhart was really interesting. I was inspired by Helen Keller as a child, also.