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  1. #21
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    And what I'm saying is it doesn't matter if you think they are pissy. I'd be shocked - shocked! - if the ones you think are pissy are held as ideal models by other women. Women in power invariably draw such criticisms.
    There are quite a few, mostly of the feminist mindset, who seem drawn to those female comedians who make their career out of men's behaviour. The self same crowd I might add who scream blue murder when women are portrayed as anything less than 100% perfect in every way.

    It's almost as bad as the BNP/ anti BNP lot.

    Frickin zealots.
    Shoot the lot I say.

    Anyhow.... Politics wise, you get a few like Ann Widdecombe. Now she might not be a looker but she's got no problems telling you that you're an ass when you are behaving like one. But she also doesn't stray into "I feel weak so I'm going to be spikey to make myself look all hard". She'll just knock you on your arse and walk on. That's power. Being all snidy and stuff is passive aggression most common in those who don't have self confidence. Hence bad role models.

    AHA... just remembered the word I was searching for before.

    Diva. Bad example of role model. Far too much of the princess complex will ruin anyone as it has them.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    I gave my view on parameters.
    Was there supposed to be anything aside from you thinking that none are needed?
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    How have women managed not to free-fall into nothingness absent their model prisons so far? They must be geniuses.
    They have role models... if you want to be a housewife or a model or a singer or any of a large number of careers but they seem to have few for those careers which are more male centric at present and for just being themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Decent is in the eye of the beholder.
    I'm so not starting on which way is up.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    I don't believe people have to resort to famous people as models. Unless fame is the goal . . .
    Famous people have larger impact on the collective conscious image of things which is what needs to be addressed to make a systematic change. It's simple manipulation of the media which is who tends to decide what is and what is not acceptable these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    I do believe the terms "bitter" and "cynical" are terms over-used by people who do not like the views of the purported bitter and cynical person but are impotently driven to grasp on to some wounding criticism.
    Agreed but that also doesn't mean that the descriptions are never earned.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Who are these women?
    And what model would you have suggested for them to not become the "husks" they are now? How could they have striven to make it better?
    Instead of ending up with a famous singer throwing a hissy if she doesn't get six white kittens as part payment you could have a singer who speaks their mind and doesn't end up feeding the already strong male image of what a female singer should be like.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    "Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
    Women are like teabags. We don't know our true strength until we are in hot water! - Eleanor Roosevelt
    Excellent. She obviously understood where strength comes from.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #22
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    In another thread Santtu made a comment about women lacking a decent concept of how to be powerful without being pissy. I figured there's a lack of decent role models for this behaviour. Women who have power and presence without gaining it or expressing it via beating others down. So I figured a thread discussing the various role models out there might be interesting as I can't think of more than a few women who have achieved an adequate amount of presence, confidence and relaxed alpha behaviour without putting others down.

    Just to establish parameters, Joan Rivers is NOT a good example of a success. That's a fail. As is most if not all of the famous female singers. Mostly this is due to fame warping them and some underlying desperation. A good role model just is as they are, warts and all.

    One example I plucked out of the air whilst musing this was Fay Ripley. Having seen her on Top Gear she seemed totally unfazed by the male dominated atmosphere and appeared relaxed and herself. Almost as if she accepted herself as "zany" even when she messed up she just laughed with everyone else and carried on happy to be the but of the joke as much as the joker.

    But then I failed to think of any more concrete examples I'm happy with.

    Any ideas?
    I agree wholeheartedly with Ina. That we would discount Joan Rivers who, along with other great female comedians like Carol Burnett and Lucille Ball, broke through glass ceilings and took the hits to the point where she had to hit on herself to make people laugh, which ironically made them take her seriously... I can't discount the chutzpah she had to have. Now that she is pushing 80 and has a tongue in cheek persona doesn't mean that she's not a role model. She should be role model because of that.

    I love Martha Stewart, Marie Curie, Margarette Thatcher, Trotula of Salerno, Benazir Bhutto, Virginia Woolf, Katherine Hepburn, Dorothea Beele and, yes, even Condoleeza Rice. My list goes on and on.

  3. #23
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    She should be role model because of that.
    Agreed. A good point. The sum of a person is more in what they went through to get there than what they did when they arrived I guess.

    Hadn't thought of that perspective, thanks.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #24
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    There are lots of female role models nowadays. Most women today stray away from the label 'feminist' because of negative stigma, but they owe a lot to the movement. They are much further along than they were in the 50s, as far as power and influence goes.

    Women are even starting to outearn men in the big cities.

  5. #25
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    The same what? The lesson of history is that "being the same" will get them called pissy. NOT being the same will get them called weak. It's a lose-lose proposition to follow what men suggest women should be like for any reason in this aspect.
    Sounds simple if it were so. However, the very premise of this thread is the very failure of most women to understand what "is the same".

    More accurately, and as a repetition: the problem is about adding unneeded harshness, and lacking tact and skill. It's about disregarding the fine nuances of powerful communication, because the person emulating "sameness" haven't identified those nuances in the first place!

    I think it's because of the magnitude of all the emotions and power. Perhaps most of the women are more adept at recognizing tact, nuances and feelings at an easy-going-level. A powerful male probably thinks of all of those on a more intense level.

    It's much similar to not enjoying loud music, calling it "terrible noise" and dismissing it's musical value, when there in fact is some.

    When the situation gets rough, it might make a woman to believe that all care for tact, nuances and feelings has gone out-of-the-window, and behaves just so. Really, the men were thinking all those things at some rough level. They were thinking of tact, nuances and feelings at the level learned for an intense situation, and they were restraining themselves. They hadn't gone overboard.

    This will make the men see the woman as tactless, lacking nuance, skill and having feelings running rampant. The woman doesn't see the difference between his behavior and that of the others, doesn't learn, and goes on to complain she's been mistreated. She goes on to say that she was in a rude situation, others were rude, but she were not accepted by being rude. Now, this wasn't entirely the fact.

    Now it's hard for a woman to admit that her self-evaluation of skill wasn't right.

    Compare to this: is it or is it not a common complaint from women, that a man treated them harshly?

    In some of the most easy-going situations like this, a man might have made a self-evaluation that their behavior was just right. Women might disagree, and judge that the man in question lacked understanding of the fine intricacies involved.

    If it was indeed a relatively easy-going situation, the woman in question might have been right. The man didn't know tact at the kind of (low) intensity required.

    So, men and women usually exhibit skill in their tact in opposite ends of the kindness - harshness -spectrum.

    These kind of situations should be turned into learning situations instead.

    I generalized to man/woman for clarity, but the situations apply to anyone who does or does not know how to handle the things discussed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #26
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    There are quite a few, mostly of the feminist mindset, who seem drawn to those female comedians who make their career out of men's behaviour.
    is this Britain-specific? I'm not familiar with this lot

    It's almost as bad as the BNP/ anti BNP lot.
    Ah. I guess it was.

    Frickin zealots.
    Shoot the lot I say.
    The model of moderation.

    But she also doesn't stray into "I feel weak so I'm going to be spikey to make myself look all hard". She'll just knock you on your arse and walk on. That's power.
    Agreed, but you do realize she has her own detractors for this very reason?

    AHA... just remembered the word I was searching for before.

    Diva. Bad example of role model. Far too much of the princess complex will ruin anyone as it has them.
    Divas are singularly ridiculous figures.
    Was there supposed to be anything aside from you thinking that none are needed?
    That's not what I wrote. Try again.

    They have role models... if you want to be a housewife or a model or a singer or any of a large number of careers but they seem to have few for those careers which are more male centric at present and for just being themselves.
    Disagreed!
    I'm so not starting on which way is up.
    That wasn't the point?

    Famous people have larger impact on the collective conscious image of things which is what needs to be addressed to make a systematic change. It's simple manipulation of the media which is who tends to decide what is and what is not acceptable these days.
    But do famous people provide models on how to be assertive in day to day life? At work meetings? In the board-room? Down in the trenches on a project at work?

    Instead of ending up with a famous singer throwing a hissy if she doesn't get six white kittens as part payment you could have a singer who speaks their mind and doesn't end up feeding the already strong male image of what a female singer should be like.
    Well, that's nice, but if we are to advocate a perfect model of female assertiveness, looking to twatty singers and rock stars may not be a good start. I'd submit that these famous singers throwing hissy fits are not the only models around, though they are lightning rods for catching the criticism people are seeking to dish out.

    Excellent. She obviously understood where strength comes from.
    Perhaps, in some respects. I think she had it right when she said "Never allow a person to tell you no who doesn't have the power to say yes." Which nicely complements my own view of shaking off the naysayers.
    Like Susan B. Anthony, she caught her share of flack for it - the latter was considered such an affront to decency that she had to have armed guards attend some of her speeches.

    Then again, to go back to my earlier point - it's better to extract aspects of these people than to have them serve as a working model. Many would contend, for example, that Ms. Roosevelt's "stand by your philandering man" stance was anything but strength.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  7. #27
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    There are lots of female role models nowadays. Most women today stray away from the label 'feminist' because of negative stigma, but they owe a lot to the movement. They are much further along than they were in the 50s, as far as power and influence goes.

    Women are even starting to outearn men in the big cities.
    Thank you. I was wondering if the reason I can find emulable models was that I was living in some kind of post-feminist Utopia.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  8. #28
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    So my long post condensed: I was telling that a woman's interpretation of a situation being hostile and demanding no tact is often a misinterpretation. This thing easily perpetuates from situation to another and prevents learning.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #29
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    So my long post condensed: I was telling that a woman's interpretation of a situation being hostile and demanding no tact is often a misinterpretation. This thing easily perpetuates from situation to another and prevents learning.
    I don't know about the hotheaded women who surround you, but unnecessarily belligerent people are to be found in both genders - IME moreso men. That behavior is, however, frowned upon more in the female of the species, in which case it can be fatal.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  10. #30
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    ^That explanation has already been established as the popular one amongst women. We're trying to look at alternatives here.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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