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  1. #11
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Knew someone would bring that up. You got two choices pal, you're either trying to enter the same game or you're making a new one to compete. Either way around requires sacrifice.
    1. I'm not your pal.
    2. What game is this? And what sacrifice is involved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    If you want powerful women to be treated the same as powerful men then they need to be the same.
    The same what? The lesson of history is that "being the same" will get them called pissy. NOT being the same will get them called weak. It's a lose-lose proposition to follow what men suggest women should be like for any reason in this aspect.

    Anyway what's your suggestion for a role model? Destruction is easy, creation is the measure of a person.
    What have you created?

    I have a model of my own design, and I suggest people find their own. I'm not in the habit of prescribing or laying down rules for other, non-Ina-related people to follow, and am suspicious of people interested in doing so.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  2. #12
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Wha
    I'm not in the habit of being dismissive but are you like twelve or something? You're basic assertion is that nothing can be created that will work so we shouldn't bother. Why do you breathe?

    Please, either engage or disengage. Don't whine that you can't make up your mind.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #13
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I'm not in the habit of being dismissive but are you like twelve or something? You're basic assertion is that nothing can be created that will work so we shouldn't bother. Why do you breathe?
    And I assume from this stinging rebuttal that you are . . . five?

    I would suggest you learn to exhale and then polish your reading and comprehension skills (or, as you would write, "you're" reading and comprehension skills).

    Please, either engage or disengage. Don't whine that you can't make up your mind.
    See above re reading comprehension. And please do not project the whining - it's all "you'res," pal.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    And I assume from this stinging rebuttal that you are . . . five?

    I would suggest you learn to exhale and then polish your reading and comprehension skills (or as you would write, "you're" reading and comprehension skills).

    See above re reading comprehension. And please do not project the whining - it's all "you'res," pal.
    I was just thinking enneagram when I read that first bit.

    No. Quite the opposite really.

    You can't have something with no frame of reference existing within a group of humans. You certainly can't try and give it a leg up.

    Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
    Power pads are just a ploy to make someone look bigger, a typical theory amongst those who don't have power.
    The whole pissy thing comes from following the worst examples of male behaviour and usually results in a very poorly balanced person regardless of sex.
    Aggression usually makes people fight and that gets into legal issues and the age old "you can't hit girls" which is another point of retardation.
    Trying to be cute and clever may get you so far but then you're still the protected and never the protector which seems to be what all this stems from.
    Trying to be cold and callous just loses you friends. It's not a form of leadership it's simply a form of denial and protection.
    Trying to be objective is just anal retentive.
    Trying to be loud is irritating and just makes it more obvious when you drop the ball.
    Trying to create a female power stereotype in a generation or two to stand by itself is a mountainous challenge and will implode if handled wrong.
    Self creation of an ideal is fine but then it's idiosyncratic and as useless as "why don't you just think like me, then you'd be fine".

    Oh and pulling someone up on confusing a word... really?

    Basically please do involve yourself in the discussion, you sound like you've got strong ideas. But if you want to piss on my camp fire then don't be surprised if I try and shove an ember or two some place uncomfortable.

    Peace.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I was just thinking enneagram when I read that first bit.

    No. Quite the opposite really.
    Clearly. You claim to be a 9, and I see no reason not to believe it that you're INFP.

    Self creation of an ideal is fine but then it's idiosyncratic and as useless as "why don't you just think like me, then you'd be fine".
    Well, this looks more like a legitimate discussion. Congrats on the progress.
    But I did not mean that each person needs to invent herself anew. Nor that I had done so myself. Nor that any person I consider an emulable ideal is necessarily female.

    I don't think idiosyncrasy is necessarily a bad thing. I do believe it's most useful - if/when a person is seeking a model - that each person tailor herself off aspects of someone she holds as an embodiment of her own ideals.
    I find it hard to believe that women in the US or the UK for that matter cannot find women who exhibit fine, assertive leadership. What I think happens is that people (often, but not always men) will always find fault with these women, so women should not imprison themselves with the goal of finding a blameless example, because there are none. Though male assertiveness itself is less controversial, there's no one perfect model of male assertiveness. Part of this is that men do not open themselves up for such criticism by seeking female-approved models. This congratulation-seeking is another way women undermine real exercise of power. The smell of insecurity whets the appetite of would-be critics.

    You may think a particular woman callous, or pissy, or whatever, but this very thing may work for some women as models. Given the inevitable criticism, all you can do is "shake 'em off" and do ongoing evaluation of how a particular tack fares in meeting set goals.


    Oh and pulling someone up on confusing a word... really?
    You were going the route of juvenilia, as five year olds are wont to do, so I thought I'd entertain you on that level.

    Basically please do involve yourself in the discussion, you sound like you've got strong ideas. But if you want to piss on my camp fire then don't be surprised if I try and shove an ember or two some place uncomfortable..
    Shove away. I doubt any lukewarm, noodly appendage you have could do more than tickle. But you're more than welcome to try.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Can we focus on actual female role models instead of derailing a potentially marvelous thread into a bitching session that no one wants to read except the two involved? Take it to the PMs :steam:
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Okay I'm laughing now but Toonias right... we should really take our courtship to PMs or something...

    Bring it

    On a more thread based response...
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    I don't think idiosyncrasy is necessarily a bad thing. I do believe it's most useful - if/when a person is seeking a model - that each person tailor herself off aspects of someone she holds as an embodiment of her own ideals.
    I find it hard to believe that women in the US or the UK for that matter cannot find women who exhibit fine, assertive leadership. What I think happens is that people (often, but not always men) will always find fault with these women, so women should not imprison themselves with the goal of finding a blameless example, because there are none. Though male assertiveness itself is less controversial, there's no one perfect model of male assertiveness. Part of this is that men do not open themselves up for such criticism by seeking female-approved models. This congratulation-seeking is another way women undermine real exercise of power. The smell of insecurity whets the appetite of would-be critics.
    That's half the point of the thread. What's needed is a gamut of role models for all kinds of reasons so that people can pick and choose.

    What I'm saying is bad though are those role models with obvious aggression issues which is 90% the pissy ones. I think sarcastic female role models are great but those with obvious campaigns which they are trying to rain (reign?) in their anger over.

    The same guidelines are afforded for both species. It's not like I differentiate.

    If you have better parameters then please do suggest but I think there has to be some kind of parameter otherwise instead of creating a model you're creating the absence of a model which means an absence of a framework. That's just freefall into nothingness.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    You may think a particular woman callous, or pissy, or whatever, but this very thing may work for some women as models. Given the inevitable criticism, all you can do is "shake 'em off" and do ongoing evaluation of how a particular tack fares in meeting set goals.
    This was what I was referring to when I mentioned fame as an influence. Some potentially decent female role models have had too much publicity and pestering from the press. Now they're bitter and cynical. That's not something that most people would see as beneficial to strive for.

    It is a shame as in many cases very capable women have been pestered by small minded press people and have ended up as the husks they are now. Kind of spoiled by the very machine which they could have been used to resist.... okay that sounds wrong but the concept is there....
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #18
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    In my opinion Eleanor Roosevelt is a good female role model. She was intelligent, tough, kind, and she did it all with elegance.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  9. #19
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What I'm saying is bad though are those role models with obvious aggression issues which is 90% the pissy ones. I think sarcastic female role models are great but those with obvious campaigns which they are trying to rain (reign?) in their anger over.
    And what I'm saying is it doesn't matter if you think they are pissy. I'd be shocked - shocked! - if the ones you think are pissy are not held as ideal models by some other women. Women in power invariably draw such criticisms.



    If you have better parameters then please do suggest but I think there has to be some kind of parameter otherwise instead of creating a model you're creating the absence of a model which means an absence of a framework. That's just freefall into nothingness.
    I gave my view on parameters.
    How have women managed not to free-fall into nothingness absent their model prisons so far? They must be geniuses.

    This was what I was referring to when I mentioned fame as an influence. Some potentially decent female role models have had too much publicity and pestering from the press. Now they're bitter and cynical. That's not something that most people would see as beneficial to strive for.
    Decent is in the eye of the beholder.
    I don't believe people have to resort to famous people as models. Unless fame is the goal . . .
    I do believe the terms "bitter" and "cynical" are terms over-used by people who do not like the views of the purported bitter and cynical person but are impotently driven to grasp on to some wounding criticism.

    It is a shame as in many cases very capable women have been pestered by small minded press people and have ended up as the husks they are now. Kind of spoiled by the very machine which they could have been used to resist.... okay that sounds wrong but the concept is there....
    Who are these women?
    And what model would you have suggested for them to not become the "husks" they are now? How could they have striven to make it better?
    In my opinion Eleanor Roosevelt is a good female role model. She was intelligent, tough, kind, and she did it all with elegance.
    "Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
    Women are like teabags. We don't know our true strength until we are in hot water! - Eleanor Roosevelt
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  10. #20
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I agree with toonia, this thread is an interesting thread. And I can say that because I'm a woman.

    I'm not a history buff at all but what about women sufferage? Susan B Anthony?

    I always thought that Amelia Earhart was really interesting. I was inspired by Helen Keller as a child, also.

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