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  1. #91
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    If power was handed out thus then you'd have to enter each and every meeting like you were going to play rollerball. But you don't. Long term power can be gained through such tactics but it's not viable for a day in day out style of leadership.

    Boss not bossy in a similar vein to official not officious.
    I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but from what I have heard and seen, meetings featuring males only also have to deal with the intrigues, the putting each other down, the secret alliances, the gossip, the competitions that have formed over time etc. on a regular basis. These tactics are not limited to women. Perhaps they stand out more when wielded by women, but when I look around me I'm under the impression that for every truly bitchy powerwoman, there's a truly asshole-ish powerman. Many women in leading positions aren't actually bitchy, though the public seems to more readily perceive them as such.

  2. #92
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    ...why?

    It's not that I think women should be graded on the men's scale. On the contrary, I think men should be graded on the women's scale. The world needs more virtuous male role models.
    dunno. But it was women who were giving me crap (don't remember who) for it.

    most gangster films, war movies, "brotherhood" type of movies have virtuous male character roles. Take Trey in Boyz in the Hood, all the way to Ray Liotta in Goodfellas to even Harold and Kumar's connection with the Southern couple. the younger generation nowadays, kinda got stuck with all the emo-type roles I think. I do remember in college, people seemed to care a lot more about character than they do afterwards in the working world.

  3. #93
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arilee View Post

    Wading in to this sort of thing is not what I'd normally do, but for crying out loud ....

    We spend all this time complaining that men don't understand us, then set about one who's trying to do just that.... No wonder they complain about female logic
    Oh my. Wifey's on the warpath!
    You seem to be as fond of making spurious claims as your hubby.

    I don't have a problem with Xander. He starts some interesting threads and he can be fun to argue with - but the way he spoke to Ina in this thread was waaaay out of order.

    Let's just break down the OP shall we, and I'll point out some of the many layers of fail, since it seems that love may have blinded your own capacity for logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    In another thread Santtu made a comment about women lacking a decent concept of how to be powerful without being pissy.
    Women lack the concept? Srsly. What does that even mean? We can't understand what he's talking about? So why even raise the question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Women rarely ever seem to combine guts & coolness gracefully. I guess the most of them try to play nice, and those who can't, let it all out in the open in quite an uncool manner.

    I'd say they have a lot to learn from men. Perhaps they don't understand the style of having guts. Perhaps they misinterpret it as an attempt in maximum harshness.

    Must be the lack of good social models for that in their own gender. A self-perpetuating phenomenon.
    This misogynistic ill-concieved rant was the basis for this thread. A post so contemptuous and full of troll that I had to delete my original response to it. It just wasn't even worth responding to

    I figured there's a lack of decent role models for this behaviour. Women who have power and presence without gaining it or expressing it via beating others down.
    First of all, let's assume the original premise: "women can't be powerful without being pissy" is true - we know it isn't true because lots of people have cited examples which disprove the premise (conveniently ignored by Xander, I might add, despite the fact that he ASKED for them). But let's just say for the sake of argument, it is true.
    What does that have to do with role models? Women in power are the exception, not the rule. They are trail-blazers. Their role models, if they have any, are more likely to be men than women. So why aren't they emulating the masculine model of dignified restraint that Xander/Santtu espouse?
    Why assume that women have to have female role-models, anyway? I find the entire idea bizarre, frankly.

    I figured a thread discussing the various role models out there might be interesting as I can't think of more than a few women who have achieved an adequate amount of presence, confidence and relaxed alpha behaviour without putting others down.
    Hopefully, this thread has helped with the burden of Xander's ignorance in this matter.
    One example I plucked out of the air whilst musing this was Fay Ripley. Having seen her on Top Gear she seemed totally unfazed by the male dominated atmosphere and appeared relaxed and herself. Almost as if she accepted herself as "zany" even when she messed up she just laughed with everyone else and carried on happy to be the but of the joke as much as the joker.
    That's the best he can do? A ditzy car show presenter who manages not to be fazed by her male co-presenters and is happy to be the butt of jokes?
    Srsly.

    And we were supposed to find this argument compelling why, exactly?


    Whenever you want to have a serious discussion about women and power, feel free.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #94
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    ...why?
    IIRC, he said something to the effect that he thinks it's cute when women make an effort to study to impress him.

    /Modern Moron
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #95
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arilee View Post


    I can see where Xander is coming from with the OP, having spent the time to discuss the concept with him before posting. There are plenty of women role models out there, but an awful lot of them are either portrayed as your stereotypical ball breaker, shrivelling violet, or dimwit pedalled out because she looks nice. You don't see many women who are confident in their abilities that can cope under extreme pressure without resorting to some sort of negative behaviour to win the argument.
    Why does a woman have to eschew all negative behavior to be a role-model? I don't know what prehistoric cave you and he live in, but as reiterated by many there are emulable models. Now, whether you or he would think they are decent is another matter. But it's a free country - you pick your own. right off the bat he excluded Joan Crawford - someone who many would hold up as a model - as not fitting his decency requirement. Who exactly died and gave him the job of supervising the selection of "decent" female models is a question yet unanswered.

    Since then he won't name an example of all these "husks" of women who are so terribly indecent or answer any legitimate questions without throwing a hissyfit. Really.

    To me it shows that he's interested in the female point of view and wants to develop more of an understanding of it.
    Not at all. This thread is another distraction tactic, because it fails to look at why these women are "portrayed," as you put it, as terrible people. It is whining about bitches because he is putting the onus on women to find some model that comports with the "male" point of view of decency according to himself, Santtu and other men who whine about pissy women in power. It is a fool's errand.


    We spend all this time complaining that men don't understand us, then set about one who's trying to do just that.... No wonder they complain about female logic
    The hilarity won't stop. Maybe xander complains about yours in pot-kettle fashion. I wonder if you let him know he is no Aristotle either or instead accept that you're the one with the logic problem. I have a hunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I don't think so. Many people think Donald Trump is a huge success because they judge him on his end result - the money. But he encompasses all those nasty traits you listed. A woman on the other hand is judged differently, as is the case with Martha Stewart - who is nowhere on the same asshole-scale as Trump.
    QFT. Just imagine it was a donna trump who had engaged in the skanky pissing match with Rosie O'Donnell that he was in this past year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Oh my. Wifey's on the warpath!
    You seem to be as fond of making spurious claims as your hubby.

    I don't have a problem with Xander. He starts some interesting threads and he can be fun to argue with - but the way he spoke to Ina in this thread was waaaay out of order.
    LOL at the raging ball of pissy hormones as soon as he was challenged. My my. My favorite was where he threatened to "shove an ember or two up someplace uncomfortable" right after mentioning maturity. So mature. I see why he's seeking a female role model; his male model must be lacking.

    Why assume that women have to have female role-models, anyway? I find the entire idea bizarre, frankly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun
    I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but from what I have heard and seen, meetings featuring males only also have to deal with the intrigues, the putting each other down, the secret alliances, the gossip, the competitions that have formed over time etc. on a regular basis.
    Precisely.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Oh my. Wifey's on the warpath!
    You seem to be as fond of making spurious claims as your hubby.


    if "wifey" was on the warpath - you'd know about it... as for the comment about making spurious claims - with my post count??? yeah right....


    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't have a problem with Xander. He starts some interesting threads and he can be fun to argue with - but the way he spoke to Ina in this thread was waaaay out of order.
    And her initial contribution was so helpful wasn't it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Since it seems that love may have blinded your own capacity for logic.
    Why? because I could understand what he's getting at where you couldn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    This misogynistic ill-concieved rant was the basis for this thread. A post so contemptuous and full of troll that I had to delete my original response to it. It just wasn't even worth responding to
    Ok so I don't have the context of Sanntus original post, so am not willing to offer a specific response - but reading what you have posted there I'd have considered the post somewhat sexist. If the post was made as an attempt to understand the female psyche then although it's badly phrased it could also be a valid question... not everyone is as eloquent at putting their thoughts across as we might like them to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    First of all, let's assume the original premise: "women can't be powerful without being pissy" is true
    are we reading the same posts? He was talking about role models not all women. Hence my comment in my original post about the role of the media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    What does that have to do with role models? Women in power are the exception, not the rule. They are trail-blazers. Their role models, if they have any, are more likely to be men than women. So why aren't they emulating the masculine model of dignified restraint that Xander/Santtu espouse?
    exactly what Xander was highlighting to start with - the fact that you don't see many good female role models.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why assume that women have to have female role-models, anyway? I find the entire idea bizarre, frankly.
    I'm not surprised you find the idea bizarre, some women find it easier to relate to male role models, but others would much prefer a female to look up to. Personally I have examples of men and women who's success and behaviour I'd like to be able to emulate.



    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    That's the best he can do? A ditzy car show presenter who manages not to be fazed by her male co-presenters and is happy to be the butt of jokes?
    Srsly.
    She's an actress who appeared as a guest on top gear. I vaguely remember the episode. I wouldn't describe her as ditzy. It's kind of difficult to describe her attitude on the show - she was comfortable with herself - strengths and weaknesses, something I find admirable from someone in the public eye.

  7. #97
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arilee View Post
    Why? because I could understand what he's getting at where you couldn't?
    I certainly understood what he was getting at, so I didn't make an issue out of it. I understood what he was saying and I simply didn't agree with him. But that's neither here nor there.

    The point is that his word choice was extremely unfortunate, and not everyone knows your husband's intentions as well as you do, so we can only go by the words he chose. When you make an inflammatory post like that, you have to expect challenging comments in return. That's just life, really.

  8. #98
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    IIRC, he said something to the effect that he thinks it's cute when women make an effort to study to impress him.

    /Modern Moron
    wow. what a blast from the past.

    not to derail this thread, but it's not ALL women in general. Just some girls I dated. And wouldn't they think its cute if I was working out to impress them too? Or updating my wardrobe? Its the same mentality. I think its easier to be lazy and angry though.

  9. #99
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arilee View Post
    are we reading the same posts? He was talking about role models not all women.
    He was talking about a supposed shortage of "appropriate" female role models being in some way responsible for the supposed preponderance of women who have 'no concept' of how to be both assertive and gracious.

    Reading. Comprehension.

    He managed to insult the female sex in just about every way imaginable in this thread. Quite a feat!

    All I can say is, he's lucky to have found you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    I think its easier to be lazy and angry though.
    Than what? A moron? Why don't you try it and get back to us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #100

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    Going to try to keep this on topic...

    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Why does a woman have to eschew all negative behavior to be a role-model?
    This would be impossible nobody is perfect. My understanding of the OP was looking for a role model from a particular sphere - so not comediennes, singers etc. Personally I think there is a value to having role models from those spheres as they many young people aspire to be as famous as Mariah Carey, Julia Roberts (neither chosen for a specific reason - just names picked out).


    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Who exactly died and gave him the job of supervising the selection of "decent" female models is a question yet unanswered.
    As I just said - looking in specific spheres.


    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Not at all. This thread is another distraction tactic, because it fails to look at why these women are "portrayed," as you put it, as terrible people.
    So start looking and discussing instead of pulling the thread apart. Why are strong female role models portrayed in the media so negatively? Why is it more difficult for women to be recognised for their successes without being torn apart by the press?

    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    it is whining about bitches because he is putting the onus on women to find some model that comports with the "male" point of view of decency according to himself, Santtu and other men who whine about pissy women in power. It is a fool's errand.
    the OP is asking for female input - by asking questions and challenging opinions it's possible to gain insight in to the way other people think and form their opinions. From the ensuing discussion it's also a good way of developing your own opinions. I know that's what I tend to do anyway.



    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    The hilarity won't stop. Maybe xander complains about yours in pot-kettle fashion. I wonder if you let him know he is no Aristotle either or instead accept that you're the one with the logic problem. I have a hunch.
    I was being flippant....


    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    LOL at the raging ball of pissy hormones as soon as he was challenged. My my.
    (off topic now) If I jumped in to every thread where Xander had his point of view challenged I'd understand this comment...

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