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  1. #51
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    We take pride in our logic.

    Then that would mean emotions are in the boundaries of logic. If they are then wouldn't everyone in this world be a logical thinker.
    You forget that we live in a dynamic universe, so basically we live in space-time (duh!).
    "What does this mean mr candyman?"

    It means that logic can be a self expanding process. So culture allows us to have more and more material available to be subjected to analysis (data but also technologies)
    But just look at computering or genetic engineering, these fields will eventually lead us to better/change ourselves (as obviously we're not going to willingfully turn ourselves into something we consider to be 'below us'). And to finish with this post, computing and AIs could oneday lead us to spawn a new race of intelligent beings able to auto evolve and process data at rates unavailable to biological systems (because of obvious size and heat dissipation issues)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #52
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    We take pride in our logic.

    Then that would mean emotions are in the boundaries of logic. If they are then wouldn't everyone in this world be a logical thinker.
    logic is action of its own, has nothing to do with emotions or enything else, its just ability to combine knowns facts into understanding.

    Ti = function of logic. you use Ni and Te, some logic can come out of it, but its most likely pretty sucky compared to what comes from Ti. My intj friend has same kind of problem with logic as you do, your words allmoast sound like coming from his mouth when discussing stuff like this. you take pride in your logics because of Ni is fooling you with what could be and you belive in it so firmly that you think that its the absolute truth, same with my friend

    im not saying this to make you feel bad, just trying to give you some understanding from real logic from objective point of view
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  3. #53
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    You forget that we live in a dynamic universe, so basically we live in space-time (duh!).
    "What does this mean mr candyman?"

    It means that logic can be a self expanding process. So culture allows us to have more and more material available to be subjected to analysis (data but also technologies)
    But just look at computering or genetic engineering, these fields will eventually lead us to better/change ourselves (as obviously we're not going to willingfully turn ourselves into something we consider to be 'below us'). And to finish with this post, computing and AIs could oneday lead us to spawn a new race of intelligent beings able to auto evolve and process data at rates unavailable to biological systems (because of obvious size and heat dissipation issues)
    That's some science fiction movie plot going on there.

  4. #54
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Human logic, like human everything, is imperfect and limited. So yes, it seems the truth can go beyond human logic. This is not to say that logic can't point us in the right direction of truth.
    Truth is an absurd concept. There cannot be any truth in a relativistic viewer dependant universe. The only object that could be defined is the 'everything' but then 'truth' is a creation of the mind and is meaningless without a mind to observe it, obviously if you take 'everything' there's no place left for a mind to observe the everything as it could only be part of the system but not bigger than the system.

    + As far as our knowledge go, for a thing to be defined as an object, its uncertainty has to be defined (collapse of the wave function) by another object/"an observer"(doesn't have to be a person).
    So the 'everything' is undefined/uncertain by nature, and as Truth is supposed to be an absolute, the viewer independant, unrelative everything cannot be True. Therefore truth cannot exist.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #55
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    That's some science fiction movie plot going on there.
    Oh , i was going easy on you
    Yeah, i'm really a famous science fiction author
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #56
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Logic is only as good as the assumptions and information on which it is based. The main flaws in human application of logic is our tendency to make flawed assumptions or use faulty information. Limitations can include a tendency to oversimplify data so that it fits the model, or to dismiss as irrelevant any data that by nature resists measurement, that is subjective by nature. When we find a system of ideas that is internally sound logically, there is a tendency to distort data to fit with it. Edit: One of the more common issues is to have fragmented data, to take a certain set of data and find connections without taking into account a holistic model of all causes and effects on that system./edit.

    An example of this is to encounter a person in intense pain. The doctor can take measurements based on all known causes of pain. If none of these can show the source of pain, the doctor might dismiss that person's experience of pain as imagined or exaggerated. That assumption can be flawed, but serves as an example of flawed human logic based on distorting or dismissing data to fit current, known models of ideas and assumptions.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  7. #57
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Yeh. I just meant in the sense that we'll never measure all the information in the universe no matter what technologies we produce. Obviously we can't build anything in the universe that will store all the information in the universe anyway, but is there as a fundamental limit beyond the other more reasonable limits you mention .
    to answer your question, we simply cannot know that, so it's like 'uncertainty of knowledge'. That's why i divided logic as an abstract math-like process (closed system) and the applicability of an ad infinitum growth.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #58
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Oh , i was going easy on you
    Yeah, i'm really a famous science fiction author
    I can definitely see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    logic is action of its own, has nothing to do with emotions or enything else, its just ability to combine knowns facts into understanding.

    Ti = function of logic. you use Ni and Te, some logic can come out of it, but its most likely pretty sucky compared to what comes from Ti. My intj friend has same kind of problem with logic as you do, your words allmoast sound like coming from his mouth when discussing stuff like this. you take pride in your logics because of Ni is fooling you with what could be and you belive in it so firmly that you think that its the absolute truth, same with my friend

    im not saying this to make you feel bad, just trying to give you some understanding from real logic from objective point of view
    I see. I am not offended at all. And I very much know the INTP doesn't see things in the same terms as the INTJ.
    Actions are taken from either emotion or logic or both. If someone takes an action by emotions then wouldn't that mean he is doing something outside of logic?

  9. #59
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    logic is action of its own, has nothing to do with emotions or enything else, its just ability to combine knowns facts into understanding.

    Ti = function of logic. you use Ni and Te, some logic can come out of it, but its most likely pretty sucky compared to what comes from Ti. My intj friend has same kind of problem with logic as you do, your words allmoast sound like coming from his mouth when discussing stuff like this. you take pride in your logics because of Ni is fooling you with what could be and you belive in it so firmly that you think that its the absolute truth, same with my friend

    im not saying this to make you feel bad, just trying to give you some understanding from real logic from objective point of view
    Oh, what does a silly INTP know about logic?

    INTP logic is good, IF you assume that the ways in which humans can perceive things to work is the more significant factor compared to how things actually play out.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki
    By limited I mean are there things that can go beyond human logic and understanding? If there are than logic is therefore limited.
    Then its not limited. If we derive all our theoretical ideas and understanding of the external world through reasoning, it is impossible for us to conceive of things which fall outside logical reasoning. Any phenomena which appears to defy our understanding, hence logic, must be due to a lack of sufficient data, or gaps in reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki
    Can truth go beyond the rules of logic?
    Therefore, no. The difference between Ti and Te is Lawliet versus Light
    Waiting for a logician to tackle this question

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