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  1. #41
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    ^ Interesting, But wouldn't that just make logic constantly grow but not reach to infinite?
    I separated the notions of 'our actual model of the universe' and the process, which is an abstract tool used by the human mind.
    I'm not sure it's possible for a human not to use logic to judge logic in this situation, but then again i'm not going to wait for some super AI to tell me it can think in 45 dimensions and that we are all wrong.
    If you ask questions to human beings you therefore accept to face this issue of the observer/actor for the concerned system (here logics' theoretical maximum evolution in time and space)

    So what I'm saying is maybe we could store data and compute at a sub planck scale level and not have to pay attention to the light speed limit and therefore time itself, meaning infinite computation and storage in 0 time. (or 1 planck time "unit of time" for data retrieval in our macro scale (i mean bigger than planck scale) causal space time.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Now ofc that's not possible in this universe, be it only because of proton decay, entropy in general and the limited quantity of matter available to store information.
    Add Heisenberg's uncertainty principle to the list .
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  3. #43
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    1+1=2 is a logical equation
    The knowledge is that there is a 1 and another 1.
    1(= info aka knownledge) + 1(= info) = 2(=understanding). ability to cobine this info is logic and leads to understanding, if you take one info out, you limit understanding, not the logic itself, because logic is just ability to combine these things that you do know
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  4. #44
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Add Heisenberg's uncertainty principle to the list .
    Yeah that was sort of implied by proton decay. but it's worth mentioning true, only it becomes sort of unsignificant when talking about such quantities of matter as can be found in the universe, but sure it does tell alot about the rate of decay.
    There's also quantum fluctuations in space time and so on but those are mostly theoretical(as in no precise model and scale dependant observation issues). And ofc virtual particles.

    and yeah for large quantities of data uncertainty can mess up storage the results, but extra computation can correct that, the issue is that it slows down computation and / or lessen available data storage space.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #45
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I separated the notions of 'our actual model of the universe' and the process, which is an abstract tool used by the human mind.
    I'm not sure it's possible for a human not to use logic to judge logic in this situation, but then again i'm not going to wait for some super AI to tell me it can think in 45 dimensions and that we are all wrong.
    If you ask questions to human beings you therefore accept to face this issue of the observer/actor for the concerned system (here logics' theoretical maximum evolution in time and space)

    So what I'm saying is maybe we could store data and compute at a sub planck scale level and not have to pay attention to the light speed limit and therefore time itself, meaning infinite computation and storage in 0 time. (or 1 planck time "unit of time" for data retrieval in our macro scale (i mean bigger than planck scale) causal space time.
    I see. Very nice. I feel quite ashamed to say I had to look up the last thing you said about the sub planck scales. You give very interesting points.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    1(= info aka knownledge) + 1(= info) = 2(=understanding). ability to cobine this info is logic and leads to understanding, if you take one info out, you limit understanding, not the logic itself, because logic is just ability to combine these things that you do know
    Therefore logic is limited if knowledge is limited.

  6. #46
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Therefore logic is limited if knowledge is limited.
    haha typical intj "logics"

    logic isnt limited because there is no use for logic if there is no info, it doesent mean that its limited, its just that if there is no info you cant apply logic in the matter
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yeah that was sort of implied by proton decay. but it's worth mentioning true, only it becomes sort of unsignificant when talking about such quantities of matter as can be found in the universe, but sure it does tell alot about the rate of decay.
    There's also quantum fluctuations in space time and so on but those are mostly theoretical(as in no precise model and scale dependant observation issues). And ofc virtual particles.

    and yeah for large quantities of data uncertainty can mess up storage the results, but extra computation can correct that, the issue is that it slows down computation and / or lessen available data storage space.
    Yeh. I just meant in the sense that we'll never measure all the information in the universe no matter what technologies we produce. Obviously we can't build anything in the universe that will store all the information in the universe anyway, but it is there as a fundamental limit beyond the other more reasonable limits you mention .
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  8. #48
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    haha typical intj "logics"

    logic isnt limited because there is no use for logic if there is no info, it doesent mean that its limited, its just that if there is no info you cant apply logic in the matter
    We take pride in our logic.

    Then that would mean emotions are in the boundaries of logic. If they are then wouldn't everyone in this world be a logical thinker.

  9. #49
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    To me it's simply a Te/Ti miscommunication, one group considers logic to be an abstract cultural notion describing a process and that in the face of limited knowledge of the universe one cannot say of yes or not some physical limit to data computation/logic/data storage exists (see my sub planck scale computation example)
    yet we do understand the rules of systems we created ourselves, and to me, the rules of the closed system/process I and we (as it is social knowledge, ofc) do not imply a structural limit in itself and the fact that the outside universe is an uncertainty and has a potential infinity of unknown values make me say that the process could potentially apply itself ad infinitum if the requiered 'tools' were available, meaning a way to store data and a way to compute data.

    Now the Te view is more about 'what can observation tell me about the system now' and consider it to be limited.
    But then again i don't have any te laying around so i'll let you expand on that if you want to.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #50
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Human logic, like human everything, is imperfect and limited. So yes, it seems the truth can go beyond human logic. This is not to say that logic can't point us in the right direction of truth.

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