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Is logic limited?

Oaky

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Alright cool. Thanks for clarification.

Because you define the function of logic as coming to the right conclusion. Hence, if you come to the wrong conclusion using logic, it indicates limitations in process of logical reasoning? Does it not indicate limitations in the human being (for using the inaccurate data/ definitions/ premise)?
Supposing human logic is limited. We are using human logic to logically explain whether or not human logic is limited. You are logically explaining human logic to me in which I would agree or disagree to it because it of the human logic we think up of. And thus human logic brings people to conclusions that human logic is also unlimited. I think this is because that's as far as human logic can have the capacity to understand. Is logic limited to us only understanding what is logical to us? We can't really say because that is the capacity of our minds.
 

krunchtime

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Supposing human logic is limited. We are using human logic to logically explain whether or not human logic is limited. You are logically explaining human logic to me in which I would agree or disagree to it because it of the human logic we think up of. And thus human logic brings people to conclusions that human logic is also unlimited. I think this is because that's as far as human logic can have the capacity to understand. Is logic limited to us only understanding what is logical to us? We can't really say because that is the capacity of our minds.

Sorry, I deleted my earlier reply because it didn't take into account your entire argument. I tried again, but still don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that our individual subjectivity prevents us from reaching an objective consensus on the limits or lack of thereof of logic?
 

Oaky

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Sorry, I deleted my earlier reply because it didn't take into account your entire argument. I tried again, but still don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that our individual subjectivity prevents us from reaching an objective consensus on the limits or lack of thereof of logic?
I'm saying that those who say logic is unlimited probably wouldn't know if it's limited or not because they would base it all on their own logic which could itself be limited.
 

Night

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I might have made false assumption and got to wrong conlusion, but that doesent mean that i used false logic on this, but i might have, but what you say doesent prove that my logic was false.

No.

You're overlapping broken thinking with more broken thinking.

The assumption remains wrong because your logic is wrong. There's not a sliver of your argument that is correct.
 

Moiety

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I think quantum mechanics proves that "logic" is a subjective term or at least something with subjective value. So does "Te vs Ti".


We are always clouded by perception and and the different kinds of logic are a human construct.
 

Oaky

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We are always clouded by perception and and the different kinds of logic are a human construct.
Wouldn't this mean that logic is limited?
 

Moiety

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Wouldn't this mean that logic is limited?

Well, we are not the same as a Homo Erectus. Evolution can take time.

So depending on the time frame you are considering, yes logic is always limited. But in a context of constant evolution I'm not so sure.
 

krunchtime

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I'm saying that those who say logic is unlimited probably wouldn't know if it's limited or not because they would base it all on their own logic which could itself be limited.

I see. So you are questioning my reasoning process. Fair enough, except it sounds like fallacy to me.

1. User logic is limited
2. User argument is based on logic
3. Therefore, argument is limited

Earlier you mentioned

1. Human understanding is based on logic
2. Human understanding is limited
3. Therefore, logic is limited

Earlier on, I was saying that if the reasoning process is faulty, it is indicative that the user is not proficient in it, but not necessarily that logical reasoning itself is faulty. But okay I'm no expert, just giving it shot which is hopefully, not wrong.
 

Oaky

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I see. So you are questioning my reasoning process. Fair enough, except it sounds like fallacy to me.

1. User logic is limited
2. User argument is based on logic
3. Therefore, argument is limited

Earlier you mentioned

1. Human understanding is based on logic
2. Human understanding is limited
3. Therefore, logic is limited

Earlier on, I was saying that if the reasoning process is faulty, it is indicative that the user is not proficient in it, but not necessarily that logical reasoning itself is faulty. But okay, I'm no expert myself, just giving it a hopeful shot.
Well I'm not really saying logic is faulty. I'm just saying it could have limits and so we only logically come to a conclusion within those limits. I'm guessing that it's a pretty strange concept to grasp. But anyways, it's interesting to talk about.

Well, we are not the same as a Homo Erectus. Evolution can take time.

So depending on the time frame you are considering, yes logic is always limited. But in a context of constant evolution I'm not so sure.
I see. But you are looking towards the infinite future.
 

ygolo

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I would say logic, at least formal logic, is limited in tangible ways.

  1. First and foremost, to use any formal logic, the semantics (the "model" if you will), has to be well defined, and fixed. Note the semantics can be quite complicated, if you want, but simpler semantics are easier to use.

    A lot of times, even people making "logical" arguments, even when using formal means to do it, and even when every premise looks the same, different conclusions can be drawn due to differing semantics.

    Think of it this way, if it'll help. When someone writes a C-compiler with different semantics but the same grammar, very different results are possible from the same program. This is actually a very real problem that programmers face (luckily only in extreme cases). Hardware designers use "synthesizers" (which are basically compilers for hardware) and well as simulators that work on the same language (verilog or VHDL usually). Sometimes the synthesized circuit exhibits different behavior from the circuit input to the synthesizer, because the synthesizer and simulator used semantics that were incompatible.

  2. Formal logic is further limited by the fact that to say anything with substance...that is anything that is not a tautology (and even the truth of tautologies are dependent on the semantics), it needs the use of "axioms" or "postulates" or something of that sort.

  3. There are further limits to the completeness and consistency of formal systems. To put the results of these types of things in simple terms...a formal system that is self-consistent, may not be able to extract all that is true in the real life system it is meant to represent.

This is not meant to be an exhaustive list by an means. I believe the limits placed on calculating mechanisms of logic, by physics has already been discussed.

With all that said, the combination of human ingenuity and formal logic has produced the information age, without which we wouldn't be able to have this sort of conversation. Compiler designers come face-to-face with all the limitations of logic I mentioned, but have devised ingenious ways to circumvent these problems for practical cases.

We have then further used our logical capabilities (enhanced by machines of our creation) to start to decode the very "code" of life.

Not to say that it was logic alone that achieved these things, but formal logic played very crucial roles.
 

Moiety

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I see. But you are looking towards the infinite future.

I'm just saying logic itself evolves. Just like humans. Logic actually evolves much faster than humans.

But yes, for me the answer to such an non-contextualized question would always be in infinite terms.
 

Poki

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I'm just saying logic itself evolves. Just like humans. Logic actually evolves much faster than humans.

But yes, for me the answer to such an non-contextualized question would always be in infinite terms.

The capability of logic evolves faster than humans do because there is simply not enough man power/computer power/etc to logically process things at a rate which we discover them.

Logic can reason with pretty much anything that is. Everything has a reason whether it is accepted, known, acknowledged, ignored, etc. Everything is logical, but we dont have the time to logically understand everything.
 

krunchtime

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Well I'm not really saying logic is faulty. I'm just saying it could have limits and so we only logically come to a conclusion within those limits. I'm guessing that it's a pretty strange concept to grasp. But anyways, it's interesting to talk about.

I see. But you are looking towards the infinite future.

Yes. Actually, had no intention to walk into an argument over semantics. Had more than enough argument to last me a lifetime. If you're asking whether bigger things exists outside of logic, I can only echo an earlier reply: God. Unfortunately, I can't prove his existence, so I must stick to the belief that all things have the potential of being rationally understood.
 

Moiety

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The capability of logic evolves faster than humans do because their is simply not enough man power/computer power/etc to logically process things at a rate which we discover them.

Logic can reason with pretty much anything that is. Everything has a reason whether it is accepted, known, acknowledged, ignored, etc. Everything is logical, but we dont have the time to logically understand everything.

Yes I mostly agree.

But I'd really like to stress out the importance of the fact that logic is a human "construct". So in that sense it would always be unlimited. When there's a barrier, you change the rules and introduced new principles to make it make sense again. Like quantum physics.

For hundreds of years 1+1 = 2, was just that. But then some guy thought it had to be explained to he "constructed" a reason for it.

Everything may not be logical, but humans will always envision a way in which they might be. That's why logic is not unlimited.
 

Oaky

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The capability of logic evolves faster than humans do because there is simply not enough man power/computer power/etc to logically process things at a rate which we discover them.

Logic can reason with pretty much anything that is. Everything has a reason whether it is accepted, known, acknowledged, ignored, etc. Everything is logical, but we dont have the time to logically understand everything.
I don't think logic can reason towards an action that is illogical aka purely emotional.
 

Oaky

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Yes. Actually, had no intention to walk into an argument over semantics. Had more than enough argument to last me a lifetime. If you're asking whether bigger things exists outside of logic, I can only echo an earlier reply: God. Unfortunately, I can't prove his existence, so I must stick to the belief that all things have the potential of being rationally understood.
I see. Alright then.
 

Moiety

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I don't think logic can reason towards an action that is illogical aka purely emotional.

Logic on its own doesn't even have a reason to reason towards an action. You need a person using logic and with a goal, to do that. Even a program needs a goal.
 

Moiety

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So logic is illogical?

Illogical =/= emotional. Is an electrons trajectory illogical? Is psychology not the logical study of emotions?

And no, logic is not illogical. Logic is a tool, a system. "Action" based on logic is something only a human, or a human constructed program can do.
 
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