MBTI <> Enneagram

[Domino]

I don't understand wings. I've said before how I always test as strong in both 5 and 8, sometimes more one, sometimes more the other. I read the descriptions in great detail and still it seems I'm half 5, half 8. I wouldn't say I was all one or the other. But yet you can't have a 5w8 or 8w5, apparently?!

There's too much of five that isn't me, for me to say it's my type. But there's too much that is for me to say it isn't. There's too much of 8 that is me to dismiss it; too much that isn't to embrace it. None of the other types seem at all accurate for me.

Why can't I be 5w8??

Same here! I dead-split as a 2 and a 7 consistently. Both are me, but not enough me standing alone. 2 seems more like a "grounded" type (ISFJ, for instance) and 7 seems to be more intuitive and dramatic like me, but too flighty on it's own. ARG!

That's it. I'm a 2w7 and that settles it! *stamps foot indignantly*

 

[Magic Poriferan]

If we throw out the conventional wing system, then I should actually be a 1/5.
Two has typically scored in third place.

 

[pocket lint]

My enneagram results are consistently equal amounts of 9 and 7, with 5 as the next highest. This page helped me better understand why it was so hard for me to pin down my MBTI type.

Enneagram Type --> Associated MBTI Types --> Associated Preferences & Temperaments

9-Mediator --> ISFP, INFP --> I,F,P,SP
7-Enthusiast --> ESTP, ENTP, ENFP, ESFP --> E, N, P
5-Thinker --> INTP, INTJ, ISTP, ISTJ --> I,N,T,NT

 

[Zybd03]

Books

IMO, What's My Type and Discover Your Soul Potential , by Hurley and Dobson (changed his name to Donson for the last one), are the best Enneagram books because they have clear solutions for improving yourself. Using the motivations behind each type number, they address how you can improve yourself, using the process of transformation. Oh, and they never say transformation is easy.

One of the chapters talks about the Illusionary System each type uses. I am a Type 9: The Preservationist, and I will list a brief summary of my illusionary system (quoted from What is My Type):

• The deception Preservationists are caught in is personal irresponsibility, which lives under the guise of contentment, an attitude fueled by their prime addiction of sloth.
• To mask their deception and keep it from being disclosed, Preservationists fabricate a pseudo-deception, distress.
• If Preservationist could own the inner strength that would allow them to deal directly with life, they would develop diligence, the antidote for their deception.
• Instead, Preservationists avoid distress by developing the pseudo-antidote of resignation.
• The illusion of reality in which Preservationists live, then, is preserving peace at any price.
• Undergirding all these illusions is an unspoken personal statement of self-justification, "I preserve my satisfaction." Thus they also reveal their orientation toward the past, which they preserve with great fondness, sentimentality and denial.

I prefer the Enneagram over MBTI because of this kind of description, which fits me quite accurately, because it presents a way to improve myself. MBTI says "Here is your type," and seems to imply that I am stuck with it. At least I haven't read anything which purports to provide a way for me to improve myself using MBTI.

 

[Zybd03]

But Wait, There's More!

According to Hurley and Donson, there are three Centers of Intelligence, Doing, Thinking, and Feeling. They have a good summary, (make sure you scroll all the way down the page, past the seminar pricing), here. In their books, they describe these centers in more detail and these descriptions can really help you pinpoint your enneagram type. These centers are more nuanced, so they help add clarity to your behavior, which assists in confirming your type. Another breakdown of the types by intelligence center is here.

With regard to wings, Hurley and Donson say that wings refer to the types on the edges of each intelligence center. The wing types are 8 and 1, 2 and 4, 5 and 7. The intelligence center closest to the preferred center is your secondary or support center. Example: A Type 5 is in the Thinking Center along with the Type 6 and Type 7. Type 6 is in the same center, so the 5 support center is the Feeling Center, which contains the Type 4, Type 3, and Type 2. Confused? Good.

The preferred center for the Type 5 is the Thinking Center, with the Feeling Center supporting the Thinking Center. The Doing Center is repressed and is used about 5% of the time. So for the Type 5, becoming more balanced means using the Doing Center more.

 

[substitute]

The preferred center for the Type 5 is the Thinking Center, with the Feeling Center supporting the Thinking Center. The Doing Center is repressed and is used about 5% of the time. So for the Type 5, becoming more balanced means using the Doing Center more.

So is the doing centre a native 8 trait? Cos it could be because I do friggin use it all the time, as well as the thinking one, that's why I'm half 5 and half 8. Or does it mean I'm an incredibly healthy 5? Cos I tell ya, I don't feel that healthy at the moment!!

I actually feel more like I've got thinking and doing in equal lead roles, with the feeling centre pretty low down, if anywhere. The doing has never been repressed with me, but feeling always has.

So, I'm still 5w8!! Or would that be 8w5?? lol

 

[CzeCze]

Same here! I dead-split as a 2 and a 7 consistently. Both are me, but not enough me standing alone. 2 seems more like a "grounded" type (ISFJ, for instance) and 7 seems to be more intuitive and dramatic like me, but too flighty on it's own. ARG!

That's it. I'm a 2w7 and that settles it! *stamps foot indignantly*

Wow, I'm more curious now to see what you are like in IRL.

I get '7' consistently and agree it's very ENFP/ESFP.

But I think a lot of a y'know, fun and young people, get that. Hahaah. For me, it just doesn't resonate and I don't want to build a personality type around it. I consider 7 more reflective of (my) lifestyle or age. Though if you are a true 7 then I bet you are lots of fun. For me though, I disregard it now when it comes up and look at other scores instead.

What do you think of 2?? What do you interpret as being a 2 and does that correlate with your MBTI type?

I ask because I now score more as 2 or 4 (both with a 3 wing) and still yes, a 7. Honestly, the descriptions of 2 and 4 initially really turned me off, partly because Ennegram focuses on the negatives and vices it seems to me. And whoever is writing the descriptions on line seem to really bash 2's and make 2's out to be needy manipulative martyrs -- like a mean busybody great aunt. WTF. I'd rather be a 4 'The Artist' if anything, because honestly, making a career jump into an artistic field, I welcome any reassurance I can get.
Hahaha..but seriously yes.

And some Ennegram types supposedly score inaccurately as other types -- some 4's type as 7's and so on.

Magic P, are there any keen insights into this you care to share with us?

 

[Xander]

As a One with Two, I really am Jesus!

The Enneagram and the MBTI are partly separate. They are like a few colors off by a slight spectral shift. Some aspects of the MBTI and Enneagram results blatantly connect, where as others are more loose. This why we have the type correlation breakdowns like we do.

I haven't attempted with any specifics. I have simply applied both types to myself in entirety. Anything that both types have, I must have a lot.
Anything that neither type has, I must not have at all.
Anything that is opposite between the two types, is either moderate or wishy-washy for me. I just keep it simple like that.

The problem is that the difference are not so conveniently explained.
The Enneagram is less technical and more about motive, but it's not 100%. Perhaps not even 75%. Then you have an odd number versus an even one...

Now, the instinctual variant is a simple add-on test that really is completely about what motivates you. It was designed to be used in conjunction with the Enneagram, but I find it works fine with the MBTI as well.

What happens if you cut out the bit's that are duplicated in both systems and then had a look? Would not the enneagram become a tack on for the MBTI and help to round out some of those gaping holes in the type descriptions? I mean the MBTI is good but because it's all preference based and makes only off handed gestures to those preferences you get odd gaps in people's behaviour. I don't think it'd be possibly to close it entirely but I'd think that were a person to state their MBTI type, their enneagram and whether they are positive or negative feedback (possibly a full FIRO-B...not sure) then I reckon you'd be able to have a fair stab at describing their behaviour a lot closer than you can with any one system.

Professionals use more than one system because no one system is good enough or encompassing enough. So why can't two or more systems be blended in theory? They are in reality so it should work at the other end too shirley?

 

[Zybd03]

So is the doing centre a native 8 trait? Cos it could be because I do friggin use it all the time, as well as the thinking one, that's why I'm half 5 and half 8. Or does it mean I'm an incredibly healthy 5? Cos I tell ya, I don't feel that healthy at the moment!!

I actually feel more like I've got thinking and doing in equal lead roles, with the feeling centre pretty low down, if anywhere. The doing has never been repressed with me, but feeling always has.

So, I'm still 5w8!! Or would that be 8w5?? lol

You would be using Thinking as the preferred center with Doing as the secondary center. To balance yourself out, you need to work on the Feeling Center which is your repressed center.

Did you follow the links to Hurley's website? I think those would add some clarity.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

What do you think of 2?? What do you interpret as being a 2 and does that correlate with your MBTI type?

Well, I tend to be interested in Twos. They are very comforting types, you know? Typically, ENFJs and ESFJs are associated with type Two.
ENFP, ESFP, and ISFJ are other frequenters.
As you can see, excluding the ISFJ, they are all Extraverted Feelers.
None of them are Thinkers.

I ask because I now score more as 2 or 4 (both with a 3 wing) and still yes, a 7. Honestly, the descriptions of 2 and 4 initially really turned me off, partly because Ennegram focuses on the negatives and vices it seems to me. And whoever is writing the descriptions on line seem to really bash 2's and make 2's out to be needy manipulative martyrs -- like a mean busybody great aunt. WTF. I'd rather be a 4 'The Artist' if anything, because honestly, making a career jump into an artistic field, I welcome any reassurance I can get.
Hahaha..but seriously yes.

Not really. The pages bash the types pretty equally.
I noticed that people always think their own type gets bashed the most.

Magic P, are there any keen insights into this you care to share with us?

I'm not sure what. It sounds like you've already read a lot.
But of course, there's always Enneagram Institute: Enneagram Testing & Training and www.9types.com.
You could also take a look at this: Enn9styls1.html
And as I have posted before, this place poses many ideas about correlation.
Type Correlations

What happens if you cut out the bit's that are duplicated in both systems and then had a look? Would not the enneagram become a tack on for the MBTI and help to round out some of those gaping holes in the type descriptions? I mean the MBTI is good but because it's all preference based and makes only off handed gestures to those preferences you get odd gaps in people's behaviour. I don't think it'd be possibly to close it entirely but I'd think that were a person to state their MBTI type, their enneagram and whether they are positive or negative feedback (possibly a full FIRO-B...not sure) then I reckon you'd be able to have a fair stab at describing their behaviour a lot closer than you can with any one system.

Professionals use more than one system because no one system is good enough or encompassing enough. So why can't two or more systems be blended in theory? They are in reality so it should work at the other end too shirley?

Well, I'm not dismissing the idea of mixing the two. I'm just saying that I don't think the process of overlaying them is necessarily very complex.
This is also, once again, why I like the instinctual variants.

 

[Xander]

You could also take a look at this: Enn9styls1.html

I think I may just change my enneagram from 9w5 to 9w8. no one ever let's me have the 9w5 anyway so at least they'll stop bugging me.

Concerningly it seems that most of the INTP preferences marry up well with all the things you should avoid as a 9!! Looks like I have to deny one to do the other.... sounds familiar.

 

[redacted]

i'm a 2 and INFJ. social instinct last, of course

 

[redacted]

Type 1:5
Type 2:2
Type 3:5
Type 4:2
Type 5:6
Type 6:4
Type 7:6
Type 8:4
Type 9:2

So I guess I'm 5w/7?

Challenger seems a more accurate match. I think you're right Magic. Methinks the test sucks ass. Either that or I interpreted it/my behavior wrong.

My guess is I'm 8:5.

you're probably 7w8. (if not, you're 8w7. 5s are much more withdrawn)
and yeah, those tests do suck ass.

 

[Dom]

Okay I've asked similar questions before but this seems more clear now.

There are a few people whom I've met where their enneagram type seems more prominent than their MBTI. This leads to such things as an F being poor with people (often too direct and T like) or a T being a warm and fuzzy person. Now I've got to wonder if there's a way of telling other than direct exposure. Is there a pattern? Can it be tested for? Does your enneagram in fact skew your MBTI test answers and vice versa for the enneagram?

I do realise that they are two separate systems but they are still both centred on the person who's answering the questions and that's where the two systems interact. What I cannot figure is how the two systems interact in a more conceptual and theoretical way.

For example what would you expect from an INTP 9 as opposed to an INTP 5?
Is the 9/5 style most obvious or does the INTP shine through and the enneagram is merely the stained glass window which colours the light?

see if you can find an intp 2.....

bet you can't....

do you see what i mean?

 

[htb]

There are a few people whom I've met where their enneagram type seems more prominent than their MBTI.

I would consider myself an example. The Enneagram One describes me perfectly, while the MBTI delivers a compromise between -- at present -- INTJ and ENTJ.

For example what would you expect from an INTP 9 as opposed to an INTP 5?

Again, Enneagram narratives reflect my own experiences. If it's relativism for Fives to the Nines' ambivalence, then I respectively conflict and astonishingly easily coexist. Whereas Fives and myself meet along a fault line, I seem to displace Nines and form a relational composite.

 

[Xander]

see if you can find an intp 2.....

bet you can't....

do you see what i mean?

He's aliiivee!!!!!!

Errm INTP 2 would be as rare I'd say as an ENFP 5 but not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. You see the enneagram seems to base itself on motivation and yet branches out into suppositions about behaviour which are unsupported by the enneagram itself. If you use the common type from MBTI with that enneagram then you can see the behaviour they describe but what then if the linked MBTI type changes?

There are few INTP 1s I'd reckon and yet we have one here.

 

[Xander]

I would consider myself an example. The Enneagram One describes me perfectly, while the MBTI delivers a compromise between -- at present -- INTJ and ENTJ.

A good example. Do you find that if you switch half of the enneagrams descriptions where it references emotion to referencing thought/ concepts that it fits you better?
(I realise that us Ts care about thought/ concept but that's more of a daisy chain of reasoning. I'm simplifying here at the moment.)

Again, Enneagram narratives reflect my own experiences. If it's relativism for Fives to the Nines' ambivalence, then I respectively conflict and astonishingly easily coexist. Whereas Fives and myself meet along a fault line, I seem to displace Nines and form a relational composite.

Oh trust me 5 and 9 in the same person can lead to real problems. 5s tend to react harsher than 9s so when I react more akin to 5 my 9 side gives me a roasting afterwards.

 

[CzeCze]

Magic P, I did the Humanetrics test which you linked to. This one I scored my usual triumverate of 3 - 7 - 8.

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||| 40%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||| 60%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||||| 78%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||| 50%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||| 37%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 65%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||||||| 72%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||||||| 68%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||| 57%

Sexual type.

I think the wording of the questions is what does it. And how I un/consciously self-report. These scores don't resonate that much for me. And 3-7-8 being very aggro is kinda opposite from the 2-4 I think.

I find (the) Ennegream much more helfpul than MBTI for figuring out life questions and figuring out what PHASE of your life you are in - basically answering the question what drives you, what is on your mind, what are your fears right now in this moment. If I can only figure out what the heck my ennegram type is, or if I can even be typed correctly right now. My answer sets change along with the stages of my life, which is kinda programmed into the ennegram system moreso than MBTI methinks.

But the ENFP type is something I can hang my hat on and has been consistent since late adolescence.

 

[htb]

Do you find that if you switch half of the enneagrams descriptions where it references emotion to referencing thought/ concepts that it fits you better?

No, not if we're talking about the Enneagram One. Whereas Myers-Briggs establishes dichotomies between the presence and absence of expressed emotion (especially Keirsey's interpretation of the NT, what with his use of the word "phlegmatic") the Enneagram One description acknowledges emotion by identifying the one that I can agree is integral to my behavior: anger.

Anger, in particular, is a powerful motivation for Ones. When they are confronted with circumstances which disappoint or displease them, anger becomes a form of fuel which launches them into action. Indeed, anger, rightly understood is an instinctual response to a situation we are not satisfied with. It is the energy that allows us to say "no." Some Ones become conscious of this, and use their anger constructively.

Over the years, failure to be recognized -- for, say, an award or a position -- has invested me with more determination than disappointment. In that, to a point, I love a good challenge or fight. And, too, like some of the ENTJs here, my engagement has been construed as anger.

Oh trust me 5 and 9 in the same person can lead to real problems. 5s tend to react harsher than 9s so when I react more akin to 5 my 9 side gives me a roasting afterwards.

Related thought: could my opinions of INTPCentral's demographics be a result of prior acquaintance with Enneagram Nines who were or have been identified as INTPs?

 

[Xander]

No, not if we're talking about the Enneagram One. Whereas Myers-Briggs establishes dichotomies between the presence and absence of expressed emotion (especially Keirsey's interpretation of the NT, what with his use of the word "phlegmatic") the Enneagram One description acknowledges emotion by identifying the one that I can agree is integral to my behavior: anger.

Over the years, failure to be recognized -- for, say, an award or a position -- has invested me with more determination than disappointment. In that, to a point, I love a good challenge or fight. And, too, like some of the ENTJs here, my engagement has been construed as anger.

Hmmm I think you're a negative feedback person. There's probably something in the enneagram which would explain that better....I'll have a look.

Related thought: could my opinions of INTPCentral's demographics be a result of prior acquaintance with Enneagram Nines who were or have been identified as INTPs?

Nah I think it's more likely that the problem with some of the "INTP"s is that they're 5s who think that means they're INTPs when actually they aren't.