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  1. #31
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I mean, it seems like most people have a devotion to their version of it, and value this whole thing about being "honest," regardless of whether anyone is interested in what they have to say. Generally speaking, I find people who overtly value "truth" to be pointlessly tactless and crude. They can also be rather thick, unable to discern subtlety, and unwilling to present themselves in a positive light in order to help them succeed.

    It can be rather frustrating to have to put up with a bunch of blunt, self-assured "truth-tellers" who don't have the least bit of respect for my willingness to accommodate others, and think I'm worthless because I don't go around trying to inflict my views on everyone I meet.

    What I have to question, though, is whether "truth" is really as desirable as people make it out to be. I mean, in some cases, couldn't it be detrimental to our well-being, comfort, ability to function day-to-day, or relationships with other people? It seems to me that people today often put truth ahead of people's humanity, and believe that the truth speaks for itself, and justifies itself, unable to consider the idea that truth isn't warranted in every context of human affairs.
    It would be more helpful if you were more specific in describing the exact circumstances that you're talking about.
    Your comments are too general.
    I don't know any people who behave that way.

    If you belong to a group of people - in real life -
    in which more than one person behaves that way,
    I recommend you quit that group.

    It may be that several people HERE in this forum are like that,
    but that's what the Ignore List is for.

    And yes... truth is desirable.
    Honesty is valuable.
    As a matter of fact, throughout my life, my one character trait that has received the most commendation from other people is my honesty.
    However, I will say that I have learned to be discerning with my honesty and not just whack people over the head with it.

    "You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar."

    If you have one or two friends who would benefit from that saying,
    perhaps you could write it in a card and give it to them.

  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    And yes... truth is desirable.
    Honesty is valuable.
    As a matter of fact, throughout my life, my one character trait that has received the most commendation from other people is my honesty.
    All you're doing is, again, asserting that it's valuable. It seems like all anyone can do is point to the idea that it's valuable because they value it.

    People on the whole seem to have very poor explanations as to why they value things like truth and dislike things like hypocrisy. They rail about it like it's so clearly wrong, but when asked to explain why those things are meaningful, they can't come up with anything.

  3. #33
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    I try not to offer unsolicited truth.

    I also try to stay out of RL convo's wherein my brand of ruthless honesty wouldn't be appreciated.

    Lastly, I realize that there are only a very few circumstances where that kind of honesty is appropriate.

    The only problem I have, is when people apply social wishy-washyness to serious discussions.

  4. #34
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    All you're doing is, again, asserting that it's valuable. It seems like all anyone can do is point to the idea that it's valuable because they value it.
    For the sake of clarity, let "truth" be defined as simply "the most functional and efficient standpoint, theoretically possible."

    Truth is more beneficial than untruths if there is a readily apparent problem present. Truth is valuable in this situation mostly because it is similar to sight. If one is running blind, they may reach their intended destination, but it's more likely that they will go the wrong way, trip, or collide on their way. Truth, or sight in this case, allows you to see to some degree where you're headed, thus reducing the chance of mishaps. In this case, the closer one is to the "truth," the better odds they have of achieving their objective.

    On the other hand, if there's no readily apparent problem, the truth is less useful.

    In regards to "truth-seekers" being rude, untactful, etc. I don't see any real need for these behaviors to obtain "truth." I think that's a case of correlation =/= causation.
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  5. #35
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    It's certainly true that those who claim to have the truth can be rather rude, but it's an error of the greatest kind to move in the opposite extreme and try to claim that the concept of truth itself has no merit or value. One should keep in mind that truth should be asserted with great humility, and that truth is best demonstrated through persuation not coercion or rudeness.

    John Henry Newman made the wonderful point that tolerance means engaging differences with respect and civility, not avoiding them as if they made no difference.

  6. #36
    Member Taizic's Avatar
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    Well they do have that saying "The truth will set you free." I'm sure many people have already said things similar to this, but I'll shoot anyway.

    It's like the boy who cried wolf. Caught lying, no one will trust you anymore. Get yourself caught in one, (for some) the guilt builds up. Then if you continuing lying, you've put yourself in a huge mess, in which if you got caught, or told someone, you're gonna lose your friends who trusted in you.

    So...to a good degree (a rather large degree), people care about the truth because it proves the trustworthiness of a person. That....and the truth is better than a lie that can end up hurting someone anyway. Might as well get a truth out of the way, right?
    So he said to me "I love you, just not the way you want me to." I hit him, because he lied to me.

  7. #37
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What I have to question, though, is whether "truth" is really as desirable as people make it out to be. I mean, in some cases, couldn't it be detrimental to our well-being, comfort, ability to function day-to-day, or relationships with other people? It seems to me that people today often put truth ahead of people's humanity, and believe that the truth speaks for itself, and justifies itself, unable to consider the idea that truth isn't warranted in every context of human affairs.
    Shhhh, don't tell the INTPs!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #38
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I mean, it seems like most people have a devotion to their version of it, and value this whole thing about being "honest," regardless of whether anyone is interested in what they have to say. Generally speaking, I find people who overtly value "truth" to be pointlessly tactless and crude. They can also be rather thick, unable to discern subtlety, and unwilling to present themselves in a positive light in order to help them succeed.

    It can be rather frustrating to have to put up with a bunch of blunt, self-assured "truth-tellers" who don't have the least bit of respect for my willingness to accommodate others, and think I'm worthless because I don't go around trying to inflict my views on everyone I meet.

    What I have to question, though, is whether "truth" is really as desirable as people make it out to be. I mean, in some cases, couldn't it be detrimental to our well-being, comfort, ability to function day-to-day, or relationships with other people? It seems to me that people today often put truth ahead of people's humanity, and believe that the truth speaks for itself, and justifies itself, unable to consider the idea that truth isn't warranted in every context of human affairs.
    Perhaps in a generic social group much of what you say holds up. What is the goal? Social coordination in order to procreate the species.

    However in a corporation all of the above can become nightmarish. I do not need nice, I need efficient and blunt. I need long term vision that the human element is important, however I need innovation and harsh critique of shitty ideas. Things must be painful at times in order to progress. Our ISFJs our utterly painful. Any critique of what they do is taken as personal critique. We have lost millions as a result of nonusability of our website do to one ISFJ for instance.

    I think you will find even fluffy ENFPs prefer truth and open honesty, even if painful to pretend niceness.

  9. #39
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    because knowledge what we define as true as a whole has higher survival value than what we define as false, and ability to lead others away from the 'true' and promote oneself via lying offers an additional possibility of 1)boosting one's status relative to others 2)feeding information to ppl that will statistically lead them to have access to a lower % of ressources/ lower their chances to reproduce.

    we're the children of thousands of generations of liers who could tell when they were lied to, or at least some sort of balance of those two parameters. (relative to the average pop ofc)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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    ... In theory.

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  10. #40
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    "Blah Blah Blah [something important]"
    "My God! Is that true?!"
    "Pshaw, no. I made it up."
    "What? How could you say that?"
    "I'm not sure."
    "It's not true?"
    "No, it's true."
    "What?"
    "Just messing with ya."
    "Wait, messing now, or before?"
    "You truthers are so crass!"


    Truth. It only makes things worse.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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