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  1. #101
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I hate spelling stuff out, but I'll do it for you.

    Wildcat compared my OP to some Nazi agenda. In his opinion, I was sorting people out to better and worse per Nazi ideology. I refuted the idea by pointing out, that I'm not calling in for a total discrimination of some people I've specified. Instead, I am using my evaluation of someone as better & worse to decide if I'm going to interact with them, enjoy their company etc. Quite a different thing.
    That's how I understood the OP as well. Are people actually saying they have no functional personal biases? It's one thing to have a personal bias, and quite another to institutionalize your bias.

    All people deserve to be loved and treated with compassion, and we all have our own gifts that can help certain others along the way. But no one person has the mental or emotional capacity to give to just anyone.

    For example, I would never intentionally befriend the person who wrote the quote below, or have any desire to work with them. I have no problems with saying that they would be at the bottom of my personal ladder:

    Ever since I was little I've had what I guess you could call 'fantasies' about hurting people. When I was 13 I had urges to strangle my stepsister to death. One morning before school I attempted it and I enjoyed doing it. She was trying to scream but couldn't and just before she went unconscious, I stopped, as I knew I had no plan of what to do after the death...When I was 15 I chased my neighbours friend down the road with a large knife, hoping to stab him and watch him bleed to death. He was a fast runner so he got away.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    That is not the trouble with my post. That is the trouble with your reading of my post. I do not include superfluous words: "I have found" modifies my sentence and circumscribes the realm of applicability. It also makes it irrefutable.

    I think you are generalizing.

    They are the fundamental building blocks of knowledge.
    You have said nothing of substance with this post, just attacked how I made my argument not made one of your own.

    In my argument I used myself as an example of an exception to your generalization.

    If I have misunderstood you, you have the opportunity to explain to me the error of my ways.

    Please do so.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I would like to say I understand where you all are coming from with this. I understand that humans have a range of behavior, and we're all beautiful and children of the universe.

    ...

    If you have a person, who consistently acts like a petulant child even though petulance falls completely within the spectrum of human behavior, I personally, and maybe I'm completely unreasonable in my expectations(!!!), I expect a person to act like a mature and reasonable adult.
    Like you, I don't think these truths are mutually exclusive.

    I worked with someone for years who had Asperger's or some form of autism.

    She was a wonderful woman in many ways. She was one person who would always send Christmas cards to her coworkers, with handwritten notes, and she had a child with many physical and mental difficulties who took a lot of care, yet she was tirelessly his sole defender and passionately loved him. She was also meticulous and very intelligent, a wonderful analyst.

    At the same time, she was just one of the most difficult people I have ever worked with, and her presence in the department was more disruptive than anyone I have worked with in my entire professional career. Just because she had many good traits and was doing the best that she could did not resolve the office interpersonal difficulties. It took a few years, but her effectiveness as an employee was greatly reduced because none of the project groups wanted her working on their team -- she was inflexible, vocally critical, paranoid, used inappropriate language when upset, and simply would refuse to do the tasks she was assigned in a way that integrated with the goal the team needed to accomplish. She also had little sense of boundaries or appropriate behavior in a community setting. She would act inappropriately in front of the customer, which threatened our retention of work contracts; at least one company said they did not want her to participate in any more meetings, or else...

    Morale suffered when she was involved in a project because progress would inevitably be derailed; things would take 2-3x longer to accomplish, and often her portion of the tasks would have to be redone.

    I attributed a lot of this to her condition, which wasn't her fault; but it didn't change the fact that she was a hindrance to an effective workforce and was causing the bulk of other employees to either transfer or leave because of their own diminished effectiveness.

    How did the company first try to deal with things? By accepting her as-is and trying to turn a blind eye to her influence. This was entirely ineffective, degraded morale, and built resentment, even among mature employees who were duly taxed by their dealings with her.

    In the end, she got herself fired when a consultant was upgrading the office systems and did not handle the backup process exactly how she felt he should have handled it. I was sitting in the cube next to her and it freaked me out -- she became verbally abusive and no matter how professionally the consultant tried to handle things and resolve the issue (I was listening and was amazed at his patience), she began shouting out strings of obscenities and finally began throwing things at him, one of them being one of the heavy paperweight-style staplers that shook the cubicle wall when it hit. (her aim apparently sucked, thank God.)

    The consultant was smart and left and reported the incident to HR; the next morning she was gone.

    I find myself torn in situations like this. Obviously we are all different, as is she; and you want to be as accepting as possible and embracing diversity, as well as being understanding of particular personal issues that have difficulty changing. At the same time, when someone is a disruptive and demoralizing influence, just turning a "blind eye" is not going to work and in fact seems to exacerbate the difficulty.

    I'm not sure how to resolve such a problem in a way that honors everyone or makes the most sense in terms of company productivity and efficiency.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #104
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I would like to say I understand where you all are coming from with this. I understand that humans have a range of behavior, and we're all beautiful and children of the universe.

    But I'm thinking this out in practical terms.

    If you have a person, who consistently acts like a petulant child even though petulance falls completely within the spectrum of human behavior, I personally, and maybe I'm completely unreasonable in my expectations(!!!), I expect a person to act like a mature and reasonable adult.

    I'm not advocating shunning the mentally ill or that they're lesser beings. But if you have a person with a personality disorder and knowing a person with this disorder often plays manipulative games with themselves and with those around them you all saying just smile kindly at them. I even gave examples of when at other times and under similar circumstances the advice would be to get out of the situation. BUT, when someone's mentally ill it's suddenly stand and deliver!

    That's controlling. People always talk about others being controlling, but how do you imagine that manifests itself in real life? In my office, when a whole department moves according to the whims of one person, that person is controlling the atmosphere. It's like people have totally skipped over the negative effects of such a person and like those who say they prefer not deal with such a person are lining them up outside of a crematorium.
    I was referring to how processing the world differed. There are personal lines that delve into ethics, morals and diplomacy. Such situations are more about structure and order rather than rankings. Besides that's emotional blackmail and emotional manipulation where you do use judgments and discrimination accordingly to put distance between such behaviour and create the boundary that is needed to shut down the behaviour. It is outside of ranking, it is for me seen more in the realm of exploitative behaviour.

    Mental health, yes you do need to place boundaries and buffers between disruptive situations. Without this you get walked all over, for there are people who test for the boundary and want to find the loop holes so they can be in control. And yes some people are like a dirty bomb, wanting entire departments to skip to their tunes. And as soon as they are out of the scene the atmosphere is better for it. These are tests and projections then. I dunno its a tough call. Accepting people is a fine line. Since many people's attitude and idea of what is acceptable or what isn't depends on upbringing and what happened in the formative years of life to have turned into the people that we turn into. Some people learn to be attention seekers, some learn that to rub people the wrong way gives attention and will continue to do so. A bit like a troll until you stop feeding their reality, goes back to tolerance too

  5. #105
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    That's how I understood the OP as well. Are people actually saying they have no functional personal biases? It's one thing to have a personal bias, and quite another to institutionalize your bias.

    All people deserve to be loved and treated with compassion, and we all have our own gifts that can help certain others along the way. But no one person has the mental or emotional capacity to give to just anyone.

    For example, I would never intentionally befriend the person who wrote the quote below, or have any desire to work with them. I have no problems with saying that they would be at the bottom of my personal ladder:
    Ever since I was little I've had what I guess you could call 'fantasies' about hurting people. When I was 13 I had urges to strangle my stepsister to death. One morning before school I attempted it and I enjoyed doing it. She was trying to scream but couldn't and just before she went unconscious, I stopped, as I knew I had no plan of what to do after the death...When I was 15 I chased my neighbours friend down the road with a large knife, hoping to stab him and watch him bleed to death. He was a fast runner so he got away.
    Actually, I'm interested in why you were reading an article about sadism.
    It's not exactly material one reads with their coffee and danish.
    Your quote came from this website:

    Help! I Am a Sadist. I Love to Hurt People and Cause Pain. I Have Bought a Knife and Plan to Murder My Mother.

  6. #106
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Like you, I don't think these truths are mutually exclusive.

    I worked with someone for years who had Asperger's or some form of autism.

    She was a wonderful woman in many ways. She was one person who would always send Christmas cards to her coworkers, with handwritten notes, and she had a child with many physical and mental difficulties who took a lot of care, yet she was tirelessly his sole defender and passionately loved him. She was also meticulous and very intelligent, a wonderful analyst.

    At the same time, she was just one of the most difficult people I have ever worked with, and her presence in the department was more disruptive than anyone I have worked with in my entire professional career. Just because she had many good traits and was doing the best that she could did not resolve the office interpersonal difficulties. It took a few years, but her effectiveness as an employee was greatly reduced because none of the project groups wanted her working on their team -- she was inflexible, vocally critical, paranoid, used inappropriate language when upset, and simply would refuse to do the tasks she was assigned in a way that integrated with the goal the team needed to accomplish. She also had little sense of boundaries or appropriate behavior in a community setting. She would act inappropriately in front of the customer, which threatened our retention of work contracts; at least one company said they did not want her to participate in any more meetings, or else...

    Morale suffered when she was involved in a project because progress would inevitably be derailed; things would take 2-3x longer to accomplish, and often her portion of the tasks would have to be redone.

    I attributed a lot of this to her condition, which wasn't her fault; but it didn't change the fact that she was a hindrance to an effective workforce and was causing the bulk of other employees to either transfer or leave because of their own diminished effectiveness.

    How did the company first try to deal with things? By accepting her as-is and trying to turn a blind eye to her influence. This was entirely ineffective, degraded morale, and built resentment, even among mature employees who were duly taxed by their dealings with her.

    In the end, she got herself fired when a consultant was upgrading the office systems and did not handle the backup process exactly how she felt he should have handled it. I was sitting in the cube next to her and it freaked me out -- she became verbally abusive and no matter how professionally the consultant tried to handle things and resolve the issue (I was listening and was amazed at his patience), she began shouting out strings of obscenities and finally began throwing things at him, one of them being one of the heavy paperweight-style staplers that shook the cubicle wall when it hit. (her aim apparently sucked, thank God.)

    The consultant was smart and left and reported the incident to HR; the next morning she was gone.

    I find myself torn in situations like this. Obviously we are all different, as is she; and you want to be as accepting as possible and embracing diversity, as well as being understanding of particular personal issues that have difficulty changing. At the same time, when someone is a disruptive and demoralizing influence, just turning a "blind eye" is not going to work and in fact seems to exacerbate the difficulty.

    I'm not sure how to resolve such a problem in a way that honors everyone or makes the most sense in terms of company productivity and efficiency.
    THANK YOU, Jennifer!!! You said this so much better than what I was saying it.

    ETA: One of the reasons why this person isn't in danger of being fired is because they're very focused and do extremely good work on this particular area of interest, they also work her like a mule. I think the directors realize that she has something going on with her, she realizes it, and she stays because she could not go somewhere else and behave the same way. She's been at this organization for over 15 years (simply because she's been here so long and others have left has she was promoted to director because she has the departmental knowledge and context. Turnover is very high in my department, higher than the whole organization. I've been here three years and have watched four people leave my department, all of them staying for less than two years because of the atmosphere. Even people in other departments know about it.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I would like to say I understand where you all are coming from with this. I understand that humans have a range of behavior, and we're all beautiful and children of the universe.

    But I'm thinking this out in practical terms.

    If you have a person, who consistently acts like a petulant child even though petulance falls completely within the spectrum of human behavior, I personally, and maybe I'm completely unreasonable in my expectations(!!!), I expect a person to act like a mature and reasonable adult.

    I'm not advocating shunning the mentally ill or that they're lesser beings. But if you have a person with a personality disorder and knowing a person with this disorder often plays manipulative games with themselves and with those around them you all saying just smile kindly at them. I even gave examples of when at other times and under similar circumstances the advice would be to get out of the situation. BUT, when someone's mentally ill it's suddenly stand and deliver!

    That's controlling. People always talk about others being controlling, but how do you imagine that manifests itself in real life? In my office, when a whole department moves according to the whims of one person, that person is controlling the atmosphere. It's like people have totally skipped over the negative effects of such a person and like those who say they prefer not deal with such a person are lining them up outside of a crematorium.
    Unlike Jennifer, I don't think you have provided sufficient evidence for anyone to make a conclusion about your situation, other than that you are incompatible with this person. I would have thought being "controlling" was an admirable quality in a supervisor.

    You admitted in your first post that accusations of mental illness could just be "a really nasty rumour". One for which you have no evidence, yet you are quite happy to repeat it because it supports your assertion that this person is impossible to get along with.
    I can imagine that you would be a very difficult person to supervise. Your tone can frequently be read as patronizing, condescending, hostile and you are giving to hyperbolic flourishes - though you may not see any of this yourself.
    You also said you had a heated exchange with your boss, which suggests you are insubordinate.
    I say this not to be inflammatory, but just to stress that one's perceptions are merely that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #108
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    I can imagine that you would be a very difficult person to supervise. Your tone can frequently be read as patronizing, condescending, hostile and you are giving to hyperbolic flourishes - though you may not see any of this yourself.
    You also said you had a heated exchange with your boss, which suggests you are insubordinate.
    I say this not to be inflammatory, but just to stress that one's perceptions are merely that.
    You know, I think if I did an analysis of you in like vein, right now, in this very post, you'd consider it inflammatory and respond as such; you'd also probably tell me I cannot see you in real life and it would be wrong for me to intuit based on what you might post here. It's funny to me that you don't seem to perceive that in yourself and simply dismiss it. What's up with that? It definitely reduces communication potential.

    Now, I do agree with your assertion that one's perceptions are merely that.

    One way (which works for me) to erode bias is to triangulate observations with other people. If different people have similar observations about the same person, while it doesn't yet thoroughly "prove" anything, it does tend to weed out / weaken any of the personal bias in play.

    I guess another way would be to view people in contexts other than the one in question, although that can be difficult for some types of relationship. Again, 'walking around' the person and viewing them from different angles (i.e., in different contexts) can filter bias as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #109
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Actually, I'm interested in why you were reading an article about sadism.
    It's not exactly material one reads with their coffee and danish.
    Your quote came from this website:

    Help! I Am a Sadist. I Love to Hurt People and Cause Pain. I Have Bought a Knife and Plan to Murder My Mother.
    I like Dr. Robert and I've linked to him in other post before on other topics. I felt like this case helped to illustrate one of the things I was trying to say.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You know, I think if I did an analysis of you in like vein, right now, in this very post, you'd consider it inflammatory and respond as such; you'd also probably tell me I cannot see you in real life and it would be wrong for me to intuit based on what you might post here. It's funny to me that you don't seem to perceive that in yourself and simply dismiss it. What's up with that? It definitely reduces communication potential.

    Now, I do agree with your assertion that one's perceptions are merely that.

    One way (which works for me) to erode bias is to triangulate observations with other people. If different people have similar observations about the same person, while it doesn't yet thoroughly "prove" anything, it does tend to weed out / weaken any of the personal bias in play.

    I guess another way would be to view people in contexts other than the one in question, although that can be difficult for some types of relationship. Again, 'walking around' the person and viewing them from different angles (i.e., in different contexts) can filter bias as well.
    The only thing inflammatory about your post is your presumption about my motivation and reaction to a hypothetical situation. Which is completely invalid.

    Am I difficult to supervise? Probably - that's why I work for myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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