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  1. #91
    Member ilovetrannies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    ^^ Lol. If you don't get something, don't write.
    Wow. Good luck with that.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 10-19-2009 at 10:27 PM. Reason: removed insults

  2. #92
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I hate spelling stuff out, but I'll do it for you.

    Wildcat compared my OP to some Nazi agenda. In his opinion, I was sorting people out to better and worse per Nazi ideology. I refuted the idea by pointing out, that I'm not calling in for a total discrimination of some people I've specified. Instead, I am using my evaluation of someone as better & worse to decide if I'm going to interact with them, enjoy their company etc. Quite a different thing. Actually, I am following your advice here (before you even gave it!)

    Then I joked on how some problem behaviors that are labeled as mental handicaps (or something like that ) get POSITIVE discrimination, i.e. people get away with bad behavior because they supposedly suffer from some kind of a "medical" condition. This understanding isn't given fairly to all people - i.e. people decide arbitarily who is a "shithead" or something like that, and who is "disadvantaged", as it happened in this thread. I do not mean to mock real, ACTUALLY handicapped people; I was criticizing the way that a someone arbitrarily decides that person A is ill, lets love him and his wicked ways! The same someone would decide that person B is not ill, he is mean, lets hate him!

    In other words, even more clearly, I was criticizing for someone to play the "disadvantaged" card on someone who's behavior is bad.

    I would also appreciate your contribution to the discussion much more if you didn't seek ways to attack persons in the discussion.

    I understand many people feel the intense desire to insult someone when they don't understand something. It plays on their insecurity; "I didn't understand something. Am I now butt of the joke? Is someone laughing at me? I'll vent it out and hate the person who wrote something I didn't understand".

    Ilovetrannies, take advice.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #93
    Member ilovetrannies's Avatar
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    Dude, why do you care how other people are treated? The important thing is how are you treat others.

    If someone has wronged me, I'll hate them for the rest of my life. I know it is irrational and very judgemental. Can't help it, I know this is the reason for the thread, ok.

    I was wrong to be rude to you but no need to insult either.

  4. #94
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilovetrannies View Post
    What the hell is going on here? No one treats mental illness lightly or thinks its "cute." I try to be kind to people with disorders because its called empathy.

    If people bother me, I stay away from them. How difficult is this for you?


    Go seek therapy.
    I don't think that's what he said.

    When you get into dealing with people with mental illness, your ability to "get along" is quite likely to be hampered. Think about it this way, we'll accommodate a person with a physical handicap because we can see it. If someone's blind or in a wheelchair I don't think most people mind flexing around the person. Most mental illness is shrouded in mystery and there's still strong stigma attached. I think that a mature person educated on how to work with a person with mental disabilities would be flexible just as most people are with a physical handicap. A friend of mine works with a deaf woman and was asked to speak directly in front of her so she can read her lips.

    To me, this brings up the question is how accommodating am I, a non-relative coworker who only has professional contact, supposed to be? If this were a family member or friend, my investment would be different. And I hate to sound so "unsympathetic," but ultimately you're at work to work, not figure out what mood this person is in today and should you go into their office to ask a question and how are they going to respond. It's not a coworker's job to play therapist. A person's emotional contagion infects a whole work environment, but you're supposed to tolerate it because they're mentally ill? What about the effects of that environment on everyone else? Is that healthy and productive for them? Should I tolerate emotional outbursts in the work environment just because the person is mentally ill?

    If I were in danger of physical violence I would be very quickly advised to take action against the person. If I had an alcoholic coworker who came back from lunch drunk everyday (lol, that happened in another department), there would definitely be an outcry. But since it's mental illness when a person is emotionally unstable you must tolerate it with sympathy, or in other words, smile while someone stabs a fork in your hand. That's what I understood Santtu to be saying, why should it be tolerated? Why are some illnesses more socially acceptable than others. Nobody's ashamed of telling how many different antidepressants they've been prescribed, but don't tell anyone about the antipsychotics. Viagra is so common place, it's given out like Halloween candy. Certain illness have a halo around them, while others don't.

    1. If a person is mentally ill and you work with them very closely it would be helpful to disclose they have a mental illness, which they may not feel comfortable doing because it is a violation of privacy on a certain level. But if they don't, then people don't know how to explain unusual behavior, they'll just think you're ornery and difficult for no good reason. For example, my father is deaf in his left ear and always tells people speaking on his left side he can't hear and he's not ignoring them.

    2. People have to be educated on how to work around the mental illness.

    3. The mentally ill person has to take responsibility as best as they can for their own behavior.

    There's probably more but I can't think of them right now.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #95
    Member ilovetrannies's Avatar
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    Nevermind, this thread is nuts.

  6. #96
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't think that's what he said.

    When you get into dealing with people with mental illness, your ability to "get along" is quite likely to be hampered. Think about it this way, we'll accommodate a person with a physical handicap because we can see it. If someone's blind or in a wheelchair I don't think most people mind flexing around the person. Most mental illness is shrouded in mystery and there's still strong stigma attached. I think that a mature person educated on how to work with a person with mental disabilities would be flexible just as most people are with a physical handicap. A friend of mine works with a deaf woman and was asked to speak directly in front of her so she can read her lips.

    To me, this brings up the question is how accommodating am I, a non-relative coworker who only has professional contact, supposed to be? If this were a family member or friend, my investment would be different. And I hate to sound so "unsympathetic," but ultimately you're at work to work, not figure out what mood this person is in today and should you go into their office to ask a question and how are they going to respond. It's not a coworker's job to play therapist. A person's emotional contagion infects a whole work environment, but you're supposed to tolerate it because they're mentally ill? What about the effects of that environment on everyone else? Is that healthy and productive for them? Should I tolerate emotional outbursts in the work environment just because the person is mentally ill?

    If I were in danger of physical violence I would be very quickly advised to take action against the person. If I had an alcoholic coworker who came back from lunch drunk everyday (lol, that happened in another department), there would definitely be an outcry. But since it's mental illness when a person is emotionally unstable you must tolerate it with sympathy, or in other words, smile while someone stabs a fork in your hand. That's what I understood Santtu to be saying, why should it be tolerated? Why are some illnesses more socially acceptable than others. Nobody's ashamed of telling how many different antidepressants they've been prescribed, but don't tell anyone about the antipsychotics. Viagra is so common place, it's given out like Halloween candy. Certain illness have a halo around them, while others don't.

    1. If a person is mentally ill and you work with them very closely it would be helpful to disclose they have a mental illness, which they may not feel comfortable doing because it is a violation of privacy on a certain level. But if they don't, then people don't know how to explain unusual behavior, they'll just think you're ornery and difficult for no good reason. For example, my father is deaf in his left ear and always tells people speaking on his left side he can't hear and he's not ignoring them.

    2. People have to be educated on how to work around the mental illness.

    3. The mentally ill person has to take responsibility as best as they can for their own behavior.

    There's probably more but I can't think of them right now.
    I tell you a secret.
    There is no such thing as a mental illness.

    I read a book about neuropathology in the middle 50s.
    It was written by an eminent doctor.
    From Vienna.
    I was only nine years old, but I already knew what.
    It was apparent the writer was a lot more confused than his subjects.

    Apology is not a science.
    What is at the base of an apology?
    Discrimination.
    In other words: Apology is white washing.

    A prophet is a white washer.
    He has followers, no doubt.

    Mein Kampf washed Germany white.
    It turned out red.

    Does one divide?
    No.
    It is divided.
    Does it then divide?

  7. #97
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The trouble with this post is that this conclusion doesn't apply to all EXXJ's.
    That is not the trouble with my post. That is the trouble with your reading of my post. I do not include superfluous words: "I have found" modifies my sentence and circumscribes the realm of applicability. It also makes it irrefutable.
    Generalizations, they never work.
    I think you are generalizing.

    They are the fundamental building blocks of knowledge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #98
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I tell you a secret.
    There is no such thing as a mental illness.

    I read a book about neuropathology in the middle 50s.
    It was written by an eminent doctor.
    From Vienna.
    I was only nine years old, but I already knew what.
    It was apparent the writer was a lot more confused than his subjects.

    Apology is not a science.
    What is at the base of an apology?
    Discrimination.
    In other words: Apology is white washing.

    A prophet is a white washer.
    He has followers, no doubt.

    Mein Kampf washed Germany white.
    It turned out red.

    Does one divide?
    No.
    It is divided.
    Does it then divide?

    If only RD Laing had the recognition and influence that Freud has.

    It's funny. We use diagnostic terms to label those who are different, as if to foster understanding, tolerance and compassion. But when did focusing on differences ever achieve that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    I understand this style of thinking, an adherence to valuations and such.

    This is to place value judgments on situations, people and events that are in a ranking order of logical sequence and categorical for efficiency and hierarchical purposes. This is the kind of thinking that causes segregation and discrimination when it is highly judgmental and personalised.

    While some of this is meant to be good intentioned, when perspective is absent across a universal line that lacks acceptance of all walks of life then a rigidity occurs that creates a checklist of black and white thinking. That competitive drive that sees value in performance appraisals, the same value in concrete things like a persons worth seen as a weight in gold rather than a person, assets and accomplishments measurable comparable and valued, that piece of paper, to be interrogated by these priority maps that place a boundary on their desires and what their value judgments think is right and wrong. The deviation from the road of thinking depends on maturity and reasoned acceptance that people are different whose thoughts and ideas are unlikely to jeopardize your would view but in every sense of the word disagree with your ranking prioritization.

    This kind of linear thinking can create barriers between what is deemed worthy and what isn't and personal growth is subjective to willingness of the ego minds ability to comprehend other than their directives which would be placed as a low priority. If this was a road then there would be only a limited amount of colours taken into account rather than the infinite possibilities. This confuses the structure, the very foundation the valuation is functioning. And it is easier to rank according to the personalized attitude that seems innocent enough yet tends to divide a lot more opinion than solidarity to harmonise. Since it is based from a competitive need to rank in accordance to the values that are picked up according to the logical reasoning to function, deviation feels scary, like a short circuit and dismissible unless critically proven with proofs.

  10. #100
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    post
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    post
    I would like to say I understand where you all are coming from with this. I understand that humans have a range of behavior, and we're all beautiful and children of the universe.

    But I'm thinking this out in practical terms.

    If you have a person, who consistently acts like a petulant child even though petulance falls completely within the spectrum of human behavior, I personally, and maybe I'm completely unreasonable in my expectations(!!!), I expect a person to act like a mature and reasonable adult.

    I'm not advocating shunning the mentally ill or that they're lesser beings. But if you have a person with a personality disorder and knowing a person with this disorder often plays manipulative games with themselves and with those around them you all saying just smile kindly at them. I even gave examples of when at other times and under similar circumstances the advice would be to get out of the situation. BUT, when someone's mentally ill it's suddenly stand and deliver!

    That's controlling. People always talk about others being controlling, but how do you imagine that manifests itself in real life? In my office, when a whole department moves according to the whims of one person, that person is controlling the atmosphere. It's like people have totally skipped over the negative effects of such a person and like those who say they prefer not deal with such a person are lining them up outside of a crematorium.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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