American Culture

[Thalassa]

Really?

Read up on Algerian ghettos.

But we have ghettos here for Mexicans, even for African-Americans which is outrageous. So your little statement proves nothing for your argument that our country is somehow bubbling with fantastic opportunity that people lack in Western Europe.

 

[Edgar]

And one of the finest things about the US is that in most of our major cities we allow our clinically insane to wander around the streets without factoring mental health care sufficiently into the state budget.

State budgets are all sorts of fucked up. I never said they weren't. And yes, I have a problem with nutty bums wondering around the town.

But unfortunately there are also people who think that taking nutty bums off the street and putting them into some of kind of facility where they can either be afforded some simple work is seen as fascist.

You can offer as much mental health as you can, but some people need to be forcefully brought into the mental care facility. That does not sit with a lot of people.

 

[Athenian200]

Ok, let's backtrack then: Are you stating that people cycle from malnourished to fat on regular basis?

I think that malnourished people could very well be fat. Being fat just means your body is storing up everything it can get...

I've heard of malnourished people in underdeveloped countries being fat as well, but I'd have to check.

There are social safety nets afforded to people such as unemployment insurance, welfare, and foodstamps.

Yes living on either one of those sucks (I would know), but you won't starve to death.

True. If you're out of a job and qualify for one of those programs, you won't starve to death. I agree with that.

I know you are serious. I was out of a job just this year, so I would know first hand.

All I'm saying is, you won't starve to death in America, unless you are clinically insane.

Okay, maybe that is pretty unlikely. They'd literally have to fall through all the cracks, somehow be unemployed, have no one to help them out, and still be ineligible for all the social programs you mentioned before they'd be stuck in the situation I described.

 

[Thalassa]

State budgets are all sorts of fucked up. I never said they weren't. And yes, I have a problem with nutty bums wondering around the town.

But unfortunately there are also people who think that taking nutty bums off the street and putting them into some of kind of facility where they can either be afforded some simple work is seen as fascist.

You can offer as much mental health as you can, but some people need to be forcefully brought into the mental care facility. That does not sit with a lot of people.

Actually there are people who willingly want to be in health facilities who can't stay there longer than a few days because there just isn't funding for it. Or who are just so disturbed they honestly don't know what's going on one way or the other.

And to hospitalize someone who is TRULY out of their mind with dementia, schizophrenia, alzheimers, etc. isn't "fascist" it's compassion. That's why legal documents contain statements such as "I, being of SOUND MIND..." and there also exists such a thing as power of attorney. I'm not suggesting we keep folks with mild cases of bipolar disorder or generalized anxiety disorder in institutions.

 

[poppy]

For all the years I lived in this country, I am yet to see a single person eat from a garbage can.

I have seen people eat out of garbage cans several times. Perhaps San Francisco bums just do things differently.

As for the op and the rest of whatever disagreement is happening, I actually cannot be bothered to comment.

 

[Edgar]

But we have ghettos here for Mexicans, even for African-Americans which is outrageous. So your little statement proves nothing for your argument that our country is somehow bubbling with fantastic opportunity that people lack in Western Europe.

Look, I wasn't born in the US. I immigrated here with my family when I was 12. I also had the opportunity to travel around the world in my adult life, so I had a chance to compare.

As many problems as the US has, in this country the handicaps of one's race and social background are fairly minimal compare to other countries.

You think Europe affords more opportunities? By all means, pursue those opportunities. As far as I am concerned, US offers the most opportunities. That's why I live here. If it didn't, I'd move someplace else.

My only loyalty is to reason.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Yeah, but it's all going to older people who have experience and college degrees. And people with ridiculously good social skills who can sucker people into hiring them.

The opportunity only exists for experienced, connected, or talented people.

Yea that's the way capitalism works. Those who are able to perform the job best (i.e. the most capable) get the job.

 

[Edgar]

I have seen people eat out of garbage cans several times. Perhaps San Francisco bums just do things differently.

As for the op and the rest of whatever disagreement is happening, I actually cannot be bothered to comment.

I guess New York bums have more class.

Anyway, the fact that a bum eats out of trashcan doesn't mean he has to eat out of trashcan. San Fransisco spends something like $200 mil a year on bums (iirc). That sounds like more than enough to pay for each bums 3-meals-a-day ticket.

The reason most bums are bums is not because they are down on their luck, but because they are mentally unstable. And people who are mentally unstable do shit like fish food out of a trashcan even when there are other opportunities available.

 

[Thalassa]

Yea that's the way capitalism works. Those who are able to perform the job best (i.e. the most capable) get the job.

It's not that simple. The dollar used to be worth more. It used to be easier for working class people to own their own home. I even had a successful seventy year old man tell me the other day that even health care used to be cheaper because hospitals would compete with one another for business - which interestingly echoes something Ron Paul claimed in some of his speeches. I'm not a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination, but this little detail always bothers me a bit in terms of the present state of things. Also factor in tax cuts for the wealthy, and special breaks for large corporations...that actually isn't TRUE laissez-faire capitalism.

 

[Edgar]

I think that malnourished people could very well be fat. Being fat just means your body is storing up everything it can get...

I've heard of malnourished people in underdeveloped countries being fat as well, but I'd have to check.

You are thinking of malnourished children having a bloated belly. That's not obesity, that something to do with an accumulation of fluids due to lack of food.

 

[Thalassa]

You are thinking of malnourished children having a bloated belly. That's not obesity, that something to do with an accumulation of fluids due to lack of food.

Starvation fucks up your metabolism. It's a widely known fact.

 

[Edgar]

Starvation fucks up your metabolism. It's a widely known fact.

Yes, I was just pointing out the difference between an overweight person and a starving person. Those two are not the same thing.

 

[Athenian200]

Look, I wasn't born in the US. I immigrated here with my family when I was 12. I also had the opportunity to travel around the world in my adult life, so I had a chance to compare.

As many problems as the US has, in this country the handicaps of one's race and social background are fairly minimal compare to other countries.

You think Europe affords more opportunities? By all means, pursue those opportunities. As far as I am concerned, US offers the most opportunities. That's why I live here. If it didn't, I'd move someplace else.

My only loyalty is to reason.

I sincerely apologize, Edgar.

I had no idea you weren't born in the US. I thought you were just another one of us speaking from the same level of experience.

I believe that we have more opportunities than Europe because we're a wealthier nation overall, and perhaps have more social programs. I'm not entirely sure we're superior on other grounds, but in those ways? Definitely.

This is going to sound silly, but I wasn't actually comparing the US to other countries so much as to it's own ideals. It just seems that if our goal is the opportunity to thrive, and some people can't get jobs, we're falling short to such a degree that we should starting focus on an ideal like "everyone should have the opportunity for a job and shelter" that we can actually achieve. I mean, focus on fulfilling the people's needs before their wants. But yeah, I guess we're doing fine compared to other nations. Which is rather depressing to imagine, honestly.

 

[Thalassa]

I sincerely apologize, Edgar.

I had no idea you weren't born in the US. I thought you were just another one of us speaking from the same level of experience.

I believe that we have more opportunities than Europe because we're a wealthier nation overall, and perhaps have more social programs. I'm not entirely sure we're superior on other grounds, but in those ways? Definitely.

This is going to sound silly, but I wasn't actually comparing the US to other countries so much as to it's own ideals. It just seems that if our goal is the opportunity to thrive, and some people can't get jobs, we're falling short to such a degree that we should starting focus on an ideal like "everyone should have the opportunity for a job and shelter" that we can actually achieve. I mean, focus on fulfilling the people's needs before their wants. But yeah, I guess we're doing fine compared to other nations. Which is rather depressing to imagine, honestly.

I dunno. I went to Canada recently. Seems pretty nice to me.

 

[Edgar]

I sincerely apologize, Edgar.

I had no idea you weren't born in the US. I thought you were just another one of us speaking from the same level of experience.

I believe that we have more opportunities than Europe because we're a wealthier nation overall, and perhaps have more social programs. I'm not entirely sure we're superior on other grounds, but in those ways? Definitely.

Well, I think one of the reasons US is wealthier than other nations is because "we're superior on other grounds", i.e. afford a more tolerant environment for people's talents to thrive.

This is going to sound silly, but I wasn't actually comparing the US to other countries so much as to it's own ideals. It just seems that if our goal is the opportunity to thrive, and some people can't get jobs, we're falling short. But yeah, I guess we're doing fine compared to other nations. Which is rather depressing to imagine, honestly.

Well there is a saying, "when America sneezes the world gets a cold". So as shitty as the current economic climate is for us, a lot of folks in different countries are absolutely butt fucked.

 

[Edgar]

I dunno. I went to Canada recently. Seems pretty nice to me.

Well put your money where you mouth is. You have all the opportunities that can be afforded to you. You don't need a visa to go to Canada, and we have NAFTA in place - so if somebody in Canada is interested in your abilities, you are welcome to take advantage of that opportunity.

 

[Quinlan]

You are thinking of malnourished children having a bloated belly. That's not obesity, that something to do with an accumulation of fluids due to lack of food.

The WHO seem to think it is (obesity), their poster child for obesity is a little Tanzanian boy.

 

[Thalassa]

Well put your money where you mouth is. You have all the opportunities that can be afforded to you.

Actually I've considered it. The jury is still out, but it's a realistic possibility.

You don't need a visa to go to Canada,

That actually isn't true as of June of this year. Still, I'm in luck, so I digress.

and we have NAFTA in place - so if somebody in Canada is interested in your abilities, you are welcome to take advantage of that opportunity.

Hey, cool. I have no problem with that. They've got better access to health care and cleaner streets.

Anyway, this thread has gotten way off topic. I still vote that The Jazz Age is uniquely American culture, and I truly love it.

 

[Edgar]

The WHO seem to think it is (obesity), their poster child for obesity is a little Tanzanian boy.

No, not really. It doesn't say he is starving. Just that he is a Tanzanian child.

You are working from an assumption that all Tanzanian children are malnourished.

 

[Athenian200]

Anyway, this thread has gotten way off topic. I still vote that The Jazz Age is uniquely American culture, and I truly love it.

Hey, I actually think so, if we're going to do eras.

The 1920's were rather American-flavored in particular... the other ages weren't so much. The Great Depression is about as far from being American as you can get. WWII was even worse, with all the government control. The 50's were too conformist, and the 60's/70's were too rebellious. Everything since then has been either too apathetic, or too mixed up with the world at large. They did have a certain kind of flavor that established the American taste... before that, there really wasn't an American taste I could point to. It seemed to be the starting point of something.