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  1. #61
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    this is really interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Scene 1
    When I worked at Starbucks and when it was slow us baristas would sit around talk. If we still had unfinished duties to do the manager would eventually start assigning us tasks around the store (effectively ending our chat sessions) but did not say anything to us about our socializing.
    this would seem to depend on how the manager felt about you socializing... if he didn't like it and wanted it to stop, then it would be pretty indirect in communicating that, but seems quite direct about assigning tasks. if he doesn't mind then it's simply direct.

    Scene 2
    When I worked at Victoria's Secret I so enjoyed one of my coworkers there. Basically we'd come to work just to talk and hang out. We'd typically choose some low customer interaction task and chit chat while we were working. Once our manager came up to us in full conversational thrall and said, "My! Aren't you two chatty Cathys!"
    same thing, though here negative opinion of socializing is more clear. this one i'd say is completely indirect though, quite literally, because he's not saying anything that directs you in any way.

    Scene 3
    Recently I went to get blood drawn, the lab tech put on gloves and opened every drawer in the area looking for something and even left the room and I heard her rifling through drawers in the other room. She came back to me smiled and said "OK, ready!" I waited to see if she was going to change gloves again but when she picked up my arm I said "Are you going to change your gloves?"
    still a bit indirect, but very prompting. i don't know if it's direct as much as simply blunt. like, you could say, "would you mind changing your gloves again?" and that would be less blunt, but more direct, because you're telling her what to do.

    Scenario 4 (stole this one)
    Imagine you've just hired a new consultant whose job is to help you improve your communication. The first time you meet with her, she hands you an article and says, "Sit down and read this article I've written. Think about it carefully. Then I want to talk to you about it."
    most direct. the reasons why she wants you to do this is not clear but what she wants you to do is.

    I wonder if directness is related to a person's ability to pick up on hints, innuendos, and reading between the lines. Think about alternate versions of each scenario as well, i.e. being perceived as bossy, authoritarian, micromanaging, passive, etc.

    Also, this ties into calling people passive-aggressive as well. I sometimes think one person's passive-aggressiveness is another's blunt force trauma. One person will accuse another of being passive-aggressive, while the accusee will assert they were being direct. Once again, I think it depends on how a person defines direct and how much directness is necessary for them to pick up on what others are saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Direct to what kind of point? Someone can be direct as all get out, but if their focus is not the same focus as the other guy, the other guy isn't going to call them direct. The other guy might even think the "direct" person is hedging or hiding. Like, an INTJ might say, "Get out of my house!" and the other guy complains, "No, tell me directly, what do you feel about me! Why won't you be direct!"
    lol, this is a really good point, and i think it answers the questions above too. what one person tries to communicate and what the other person receives can be totally different things. my mom (ESFJ) is actually more direct than my dad (INTP) but mom is more tactful than dad. which is to say, i think mom is better at getting across what she wants to get across - getting the results she wants (i forget who mentioned results before, but like that), but dad uses language that more obviously conveys his opinion.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This is a returning topic in my mind, directness and assertiveness.

    I see very often on this forum (less so IRL, but whatever) someone often advising another person to be direct or complaining about the lack of directness from others, which often leads to declarations of insecurity and immaturity towards the "indirect" party.

    So I've been trying to think of some scenarios that I would like people to categorize as direct or indirect. I'm trying to figure out what exactly are people's ideas of direct.

    Thoughts?
    This is a returning thought to my mind too because Americans often and politely and sincerely ask me to be direct.

    This is odd to me for even asking a direct question here is slightly rude - we would prefer to hear the information indirectly.

    So it seems Americans believe it is right to be direct. It is almost as though they have been trained to be direct.

    And the more I learn about the American education system the more I can see they use Prussian Pedagogy to serve the needs of the industrial system.

    For instance, American students are sorted and graded as the most efficient way to educate them. The American system is an assembly line education efficiently turning out students just as a Ford factory efficiently turns out cars.

    Americans are sorted by IQ test and by multiple choice questions as the most efficient way to process them.

    So it is no wonder they see their personality in the same way and seek to sort their personalities in the most efficient way possible.

    And as you can see indirectness is inefficient and directness is efficient.

    The Prussians had no sense of humour, but knew they had no sense of humour, but at least they were efficient.

    Americans keep telling us they have the best sense of humour in the world but seem deaf to irony.

    And of course irony is the first casualty of any revolution.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Thoughts?
    I am often told here by Americans that I am not logical. What they mean is that I don't use deductive logic.

    And this is true. Deductive logic is used to program computers, and I am not a computer. Rather I use inductive logic and metaphor.

    Unfortunately deductive logic is seen as direct and inductive logic and metaphor are seen as indirect.

    And of course for Americans direct is good and sincere while inductive logic and metaphor are bad and phoney.

    And Americans can no more leap out of their own culture than they can leap out of their own skin.

    But so many seem uncomfortable in their own skin that they seem determined to make us uncomfortable in our own skins as well.

    And just as anything that is good for General Motors is good for America, so whatever is good for America is good for the world.

    And they keep telling us, "It's for your own good", just as Alice Miller told us Prussian Pedagogy is for our own good.

    You can read, "For Your Own Good", by clicking on For Your Own Good and going to the bottom of the screen and clicking under Contents.

  4. #64
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Scene 1
    When I worked at Starbucks and when it was slow us baristas would sit around talk. If we still had unfinished duties to do the manager would eventually start assigning us tasks around the store (effectively ending our chat sessions) but did not say anything to us about our socializing.
    Indirect. The manager didn't comment on you guys talking too much and not working, but the manager did give you tasks to get back to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Scene 2
    When I worked at Victoria's Secret I so enjoyed one of my coworkers there. Basically we'd come to work just to talk and hang out. We'd typically choose some low customer interaction task and chit chat while we were working. Once our manager came up to us in full conversational thrall and said, "My! Aren't you two chatty Cathys!"
    Direct in an indirect way. Saying you guys talk to much, now get to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Scene 3
    Recently I went to get blood drawn, the lab tech put on gloves and opened every drawer in the area looking for something and even left the room and I heard her rifling through drawers in the other room. She came back to me smiled and said "OK, ready!" I waited to see if she was going to change gloves again but when she picked up my arm I said "Are you going to change your gloves?"
    VERY direct/blunt. She gets the point when you asked her to change her gloves. ("Change my Gloves? Why?" goes back in sequences "Ohhh because I went through a lot of the drawers.")

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Scenario 4 (stole this one)
    Imagine you've just hired a new consultant whose job is to help you improve your communication. The first time you meet with her, she hands you an article and says, "Sit down and read this article I've written. Think about it carefully. Then I want to talk to you about it."
    It is indirect in the sense that the consultant tells me to read an article, but indirect because she doesn't tell me a brief explanation of the article. It is also indirect that the consultant said we are going to discuss about the article, but did not tell me a couple things to discuss about the article. Though it is direct in the sense that she told me that we are going to discuss the article. The keyword is direction. The consultant directs one way, but doesn't give direction for any questions that might arise. This last one is a little harder to say whether it is direct or not. The consultant sounds like she is being direct where she tells me to do this and that. But there seems be a sort of indirectness to it. Give me some details. It is like a mother telling her child that he is grounded without a full explanation. He knows he was grounded for doing something, but what?

    Same goes for this. I know I hired the consultant to help me. I know she told me to read the article, I know I am going to discuss about it with the consultant. At least give me a brief explanation about the article and what we might discuss about for the article so I know what am I going to discuss with her about.

    A more direct approach to this (at least to me) is to give a brief explanation about the article and tell me some things that we might discuss during our discussion.

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