User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 64

  1. #41
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    To be fair, I don't think barking at people is the best method either.
    True but sometimes saying "don't be such a tard" is MUCH more helpful than "oh you're not being thick, no... but have you thought perhaps of maybe looking at this?".

    Oh and I tend to apply it double with ENxJs. If they're nose isn't red and perhaps slightly blue then they just aren't going to notice
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #42
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    3,272

    Default

    I have to say this for the starters protean. All the threads you start give me the feeling of something unknown, and they really make me think on an intense level. I think it's because you draw your ideas from humanist situations, and you have deep thought about them. So, directness?

    I'll use a scale of 0 to 10 about assertiveness, lifted from a professional evaluation I got. It has "directive" behavior at the top end of the scale.

    0-3: Tactful, indirect. Listens, cooperates, follows. Not argumentative, offensive, or pushy.
    4-5: Can inform. Mildly gives opinions & directions. Prefers to cooperate & follow.
    6-7: Informs, persuades & directs. Can demand & discipline. Not pushy or argumentative. Can cooperate, follow.
    8-10: Strongly directs, asserts opinions. Demands & disciplines. Is comfortable with arguing or being forceful.

    Scene 1
    When I worked at Starbucks and when it was slow us baristas would sit around talk. If we still had unfinished duties to do the manager would eventually start assigning us tasks around the store (effectively ending our chat sessions) but did not say anything to us about our socializing.

    Manager: 6-7.
    You: 3-5

    Scene 2
    When I worked at Victoria's Secret I so enjoyed one of my coworkers there. Basically we'd come to work just to talk and hang out. We'd typically choose some low customer interaction task and chit chat while we were working. Once our manager came up to us in full conversational thrall and said, "My! Aren't you two chatty Cathys!"

    Manager: 5-6
    You: N/A

    Scene 3
    Recently I went to get blood drawn, the lab tech put on gloves and opened every drawer in the area looking for something and even left the room and I heard her rifling through drawers in the other room. She came back to me smiled and said "OK, ready!" I waited to see if she was going to change gloves again but when she picked up my arm I said "Are you going to change your gloves?"

    Lab tech: N/A
    You: 7-8


    Scenario 4 (stole this one)
    Imagine you've just hired a new consultant whose job is to help you improve your communication. The first time you meet with her, she hands you an article and says, "Sit down and read this article I've written. Think about it carefully. Then I want to talk to you about it."

    Consultant: 8-9

    I'm just rating the kind of behavior everyone exhibited, not their persons.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #43
    actinomycetes raindancing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    353

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Indirect people tend to obfuscate, conceal and evade... they're frickin irritating for prolonged periods. If they haven't got the strength of conviction to state something so others can see it and either accept or refute it then exactly why should it be considered?
    When I talked of indirect communication, I was refering more to communicating things you would like to do or would like someone else to do. Probably other things as well, but I can't think of them right now... brain isn't working right - too tired.

    If we're discussing a topic then I view it differently. My preference is to talk with someone directly and not have the discussion become competitive. I put the competitiveness mention in because A. I hate it, and B. It can make it more difficult to find the truth because people become defensive or want their view to 'win'.
    Unfortunately a lot of people get either intimidated or offended if I engage in a conversation like this, that leads to them thinking I want to 'beat' them and competitiveness.
    But then the things these people want to discuss aren't normally that interesting to me anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.
    However, when something is interesting to me, I will try to be a bit softer if I know the people I'm talking to are likely to feel intimidated, but it can be so hard when I get enthusiastic about something.
    “Can a man of perception respect himself at all?”
    ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

  4. #44
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by raindancing View Post
    When I talked of indirect communication, I was refering more to communicating things you would like to do or would like someone else to do. Probably other things as well, but I can't think of them right now... brain isn't working right - too tired.

    If we're discussing a topic then I view it differently. My preference is to talk with someone directly and not have the discussion become competitive. I put the competitiveness mention in because A. I hate it, and B. It can make it more difficult to find the truth because people become defensive or want their view to 'win'.
    Unfortunately a lot of people get either intimidated or offended if I engage in a conversation like this, that leads to them thinking I want to 'beat' them and competitiveness.
    But then the things these people want to discuss aren't normally that interesting to me anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.
    However, when something is interesting to me, I will try to be a bit softer if I know the people I'm talking to are likely to feel intimidated, but it can be so hard when I get enthusiastic about something.
    That's the difference with being direct and being bossy m'ducks

    Being direct doesn't necessarily mean you wish to control them, it just means you're being 100% clear.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #45
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    That's the difference with being direct and being bossy m'ducks

    Being direct doesn't necessarily mean you wish to control them, it just means you're being 100% clear.
    It seems like many people take directness as an ad hominem attack.

  6. #46
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It seems like many people take directness as an ad hominem attack.
    You're an ENTJ so most people probably take what you call direct as what nations refer to as "first strike".

    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #47
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    979

    Default

    My reading of the OP was that it was more about giving directions to those who weren't friends and how the speaker conveyed what he/she wanted them to do.

    Directions:

    1) Get to work
    2) Stop talking
    3) Change your gloves
    4) Read this

    But even among friends, being assertive, direct and even blunt can be necessary. Your rights, feelings and preferences count, too. I understand how you may not want to tell people what to do and would rather have them do things their way, but people are constantly stepping on others' toes, even those of their friends and loved ones. In my mind, it's important to tell them when that happens.

    Some people take hints, but others you just have to tell "Hey, I was late to work because you made me wait 10 minutes when I came to pick you up. Next time I'm going to [have to] leave if you're not ready."

    That could be said in different ways, but if my friend spends 10 minutes looking for a certain sweater she wants to wear, thereby making me late, I'm going to say something about it as directly as possible.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  8. #48
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It seems like many people take directness as an ad hominem attack.
    I agree.

    Also many of those not skilled in polite discourse, direct communications sounds like ad hominem attacks.

    If they sound like ad hominem attacks the result or response will reflect this understanding/misunderstanding. An earlier poster's succinct paraphrase as barking is a good metaphoric example of that direct communication response and its tonality and how it is read/heard in the ears of the listener.

    In other words when something barks at you the choice options tend to be limited to fight or flight. These may not be the ideal results unless competitive territorial pissing is the objective.

    Often outwardly aggressive nonverbal behavior is associated with many direct communications. Often that association is anchored in the listeners psyche regardless if they are reading or listening. Even communications on its face which appears to be direct communication often underlies alternative motives and is therefore often both direct and a passive agreesive indirect communication.

    There are people who want to see themselves as being concise upfront and even righteous and don't care how they are seen by others as long as they are literal in their communication. Their focus is on the mirror. Often, however, this appears to the listener as self absorbsion, an anti seductive trait.

    There are other people who are less concerned with literal succinctness and often are more concerned with how the message will effect the listener, how the listener will respond. Consider how those who value this concern may favor indirect communication.

    It short the point I am trying to make is that it is not what you say but how you say it.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  9. #49
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    All these lovely metaphors of indirect communication being like a ballet or two swans mating glosses over the fact that most indirect communication sounds like non-communication to those that prefer a more direct communication style. Personally, I try (try!) to use a more agile communication style but naturally prefer direct.

    Still waiting for my examples. I think one of the reasons why it's hard to find examples is because the message of subtle, clear, indirect communication is often obscure, so yeah it is an oxymoron. With my first example, there was a clear objective>task>result but I also used that one because it was fairly simple. It tends to be highly situational and context dependent and as raindancing mentioned tends to work best within a small dynamic or with people who are more familiar with each other than average. I think that when you're trying to persuade or convince someone of something that you need them to cooperate with subtle, results-oriented indirect communication comes naturally out of most people. I do believe there is a less conscious shift that occurs but when people operate in that realm most of the time I can see how frustration can arise when someone thinks they're being clear as flashing neon signs but the other person is befuddled.
    Could you give your own answers to the original post, now that this thread is a few days old? For example, I still view scenario 1 as the best example of direct communication, but from reading this post I think you mean something different when you say "direct communication".
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  10. #50
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Still waiting for my examples.
    Isaiah 42:16-20 DRB
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

Similar Threads

  1. Immediate cause vs. direct and indirect cause.
    By GarrotTheThief in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-09-2015, 05:44 AM
  2. [ENFP] ENFPs and Nonverbal Communication
    By sculpting in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-17-2011, 08:45 AM
  3. Directions and navigation
    By onemoretime in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 03-02-2010, 11:43 AM
  4. [MBTItm] Differences in Introverted and Extroverted Communication
    By Cindy in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-10-2009, 11:05 AM
  5. Eye Direction and Cognitive Function
    By heart in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-27-2008, 08:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO