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  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Honestly, it could be worse.

    At least there are ways you could behave in order to move up the ladder if you wanted to. What's really unfair is when a person is trapped at a particular rung, can't do anything about their station, and people who don't deserve their positions get to stay at the top.

    Personally, I prefer to stay at the lower rungs, and then use that position along with my awareness that this is how people operate, in ways people don't anticipate to get what little I need. I don't really need much, and I don't want to deal with the responsibility of the higher levels (the trade-off is generally more involvement/responsibility/scrutiny for more respect). Mostly because I use it more consciously than most people do. Knowledge is painful, but it can give you an advantage if you don't let yourself get too disgusted by it.

    I noticed this tendency in people at a much younger age than you probably did, though... which is probably why I never *completely* trust them. I probably wasn't ready for it when I learned it (Ni is unfortunately very, very sensitive to this kind of stuff... practically built to detect it), and it really impaired my capacity for trust in basic goodness. Let's just say I was listening to this song at age 8 or so (note that the use of "sweet" dreams is meant to be ironic):

    YouTube - Eurythmics - Sweet Dreams (Are Made Of This)
    Sweet dreams are made of this
    Who am I to disagree?
    I travel the world
    And the seven seas
    Everybody's looking for something.

    Some of them want to use you
    Some of them want to get used by you
    Some of them want to abuse you
    Some of them want to be abused.

    Sweet dreams are made of this
    Who am I to disagree?
    I travel the world
    And the seven seas
    Everybody's looking for something.

    Hold your head up - Keep your head up - Movin' on
    Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
    Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
    Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up.

    Some of them want to use you
    Some of them want to get used by you
    Some of them want to abuse you
    Some of them want to be abused.

    Hold your head up - Keep your head up - Movin' on
    Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
    Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
    Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up.

    Sweet dreams are made of this... (4x and fade)

  2. #12
    Senior Member Drezoryx's Avatar
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    nice topic ure right this does happen n we love to challenge until the leader forms a special equation with us (of equals almost) or we dont care abt any authority n go all out blazing with the bazookas !! bang bang bang!!
    Type 8 sx/sp/so
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  3. #13
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    No, I never notice this type of stuff. I think it's just in the heads of people, not something that exists in reality. It's only an artificial structure superimposed over social interactions that would otherwise be more natural. I live my life without caring about power-dynamics and so far I haven't met particularly big obstacles, so I suppose my approach is not excessively wrong.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #14
    half-nut member briochick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    No, I never notice this type of stuff. I think it's just in the heads of people, not something that exists in reality. It's only an artificial structure superimposed over social interactions that would otherwise be more natural. I live my life without caring about power-dynamics and so far I haven't met particularly big obstacles, so I suppose my approach is not excessively wrong.
    You may have never noticed this stuff but I have to dissagree with your assumption. It is only in the head in the sense that all interpersonal dynamics begin in our minds. Everything from having the head of a lodge, to royalty, to hazing at fraternities speaks of a tendency within our race to form a "pecking order," some at the top, some not. Bullying is another example of this, a power play exerting dominance. Obviously it's more compelex than with wolves, because we are both animals and spirits, but it is there. The very notition of climbing a social latter denotes that there is an order to people's power, and how their viewed within their community. Considering how far back it goes (all of recorded history, I'd say) I don't think it's an artificial structure, but a natural one.
    Perhaps you are naturally dominant, an alpha male even, and so power dynamics aren't such a big deal. There are some people who take precedence when they walk into a room and most naturally cede to them. You may be one of those people. Or, maybe you are oblivious to some of the dynamics around you. I don't know. I would say that if you were not a naturally aggressive individual (not quite dominant) than you would definately experience obsticals. I think there are probably definate advantages to your personality.
    -Brio

    "I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life; I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well."
    -Teddy Roosevelt
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  5. #15
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    Survival instincts. Of course you have to play that game if you want to be part of any group, because every group has some sort of hierarchy. There's no escaping it.

  6. #16
    Junior Member GHC's Avatar
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    I have noticed the –pack mentality- that we as humans seem to have deep wired in our subconscious. I have put it way more thought and emphasis now that I used to do.

    Believe it or not my classroom is overpopulated with dominant extroverted females, when they are not in their loving-We are the best friends Forever-Moments they are trying to kill and prove their dominance with each other over the silliest things you can imagine.
    I would say there are definite more competition and rivalries between the women’s of my class than the males.

    Most of the males in my class get along well with each other and most of them since to be quite happy with their -places-. The Alpha male of my group is fortunately a very good hearted person though he is very assertive, confident and people are naturally drawn to him.

  7. #17
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Some groups are more hierarchical, while others are more egalitarian. It really depends on the setting and the attitudes of the people in the group. In a work setting there is usually an explicitly defined hierarchy. In any other setting I don't tolerate that crap, at least if it's obvious. Sometimes it's too subtle for me to detect.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  8. #18
    Member tetsuwanatom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briochick View Post
    But, lately, I feel I've been learning to play by the rules of the pack, so to speak. You know, identify the pack leaders, whether male or female, alli myself with some faction, assert support of the dominant, submit, or involve myself in subterfuge. It's depressing, quite frankly, but that's beside the point.
    We're people, individuals. We have evolved brains. So, why is it that we respond this way? And, why do I find that I have to respond this way if I don't want to be a lone wolf? Isn't it odd?

    As a person who has experience of being mobbed in her workplace and who have had these thoughts during some of her darker days, I can offer you some advice.

    First, decide what you want. Identify why you are unhappy. Accept your part of the responsibility for your unhappiness. It is not just the social structure and your environment that is putting you down, you too have had played a role in shaping your life down this path. In your past, you have made choices that have led you to be in this state.

    Once you have resolved your inner conflict (this might take a while!), you should be able to identify personal patterns of thoughts and behaviour that are harmful to you, that mar your sense of self and purpose. Change these behaviours.

    Engage with your environment. Not in terms of your "playing-the-game" persona, but in a more honest way, more in line with yourself--the self you have understood more after facing and resolving your inner conflicts.

    Sometimes your environment might not be suitable for you. In that case, you should identify the kind of environment that would suit you better. But sometimes it is also necessary to change your environment, and not just you.

    In my workplace, there were a lot of chronicled abuses---abuses of authority, money, ad hoc rules put in place with flimsy justifications. It was an implicit kind of conflict, the kind that was difficult to air and discuss. And in fact, when they were aired and discussed, the people in positions of authority acknowledged them, reported them in their files, then promptly ignored them.

    Many times I felt that maybe the problem was just me; and many times the alpha people acted like the problem WAS just me and a few other people who were really at the bottom of the pile. They said the problem was "localised".

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, we became whistleblowers. It took a long time, but we finally found someone who was high up enough and who WANTED to do something and actually did it.

    Of course, after that we still got into trouble
    But this time it wasn't because we were "blowing hot air" and talking about "localised problems", but because we "circumvented the hierarchy and went straight to talk to the person at the top without going through the proper channels". But this time the people in the proper channels stopped saying that there were no problems.

    We did not follow the pack mentality so we got into trouble. But we didn't follow it because it was making us feel shite and horrible and depressed and unhealthy.
    Even the people who were following the pack mentality and playing along were feeling shite and horrible and depressed and unhealthy.
    And the people at the top of the pack?
    I don't think they were happy people either, to be honest. They were fighting amongst themselves all the time, being paranoid, trying to show off to each other that they are better than the other.

    It is not really the pack mentality that you should be worried about, but more the direction and growth of your pack.
    Is your pack the social structure that will bring the best out of you?
    Are you having fun with your pack? Is your pack giving you the stability you need? Do you feel like you are a significant member of your pack? Do you feel you are growing in this environment? Do you feel in this pack that you can contribute something?


    I gave you an extreme case of a pack that is not aligned with my values (and one that seems to consume people!), but I think that when you are not in your "right place", you will feel this conflict between yourself and your environment.
    This is an opportunity for growth
    [Kierkegaard: either/or] At the moment of choice, he is at the point of consummation, for his personality is consummating itself, and yet at the same moment he is at the very beginning, because he is choosing himself according to his freedom. As a product he is squeezed into the forms of actuality; in the choice he makes himself elastic, transforms everything exterior into interiority. He has his place in the world; in freedom he chooses his place---that is, he chooses this place

  9. #19
    Junior Member GHC's Avatar
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    I just want to point out something about the pack mentality and individual itself:

    Unlike most animals WE have far more opportunities and chances to self improvement and growth so don't take the Heriarichal system and people who follow it dictate your present and future life. Everyone is capable of success it is just a thing to propose it oneself.

    I suppose that's my idealistic side taking the lead now. XD

  10. #20
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I'm glad this sort of stuff goes over my head, applying dominant and submissive to every person/action and so readily trying to analogise our behaviour to that of animals seems a bit distasteful to me.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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