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  1. #71
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post


    God, that's hilarious. I was feeling awful, it's so much better now.
    i took it out because i was looking for the video. ff to 2:27 for the quote live. can't really argue with his logic.

  2. #72
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    You'll never end up doing that if you never socialize.
    True.

    In fact, I think that's one of the reasons I sabotage myself. My Fe is trying to protect the world from what my Fi wants... by keeping me locked up where I am, rather than letting me run loose in the streets, potentially furthering my diabolical goals and hurting others. Basically, I think that listening to my own desires would cause me to hurt others.

    To be honest, I may be more afraid of success than failure.

  3. #73
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well... honestly, yes.

    That's one of the reasons I don't like trying to make decisions based on what I want or appeals to my values, rather than an understanding of the options involved.

    Because honestly, most of the things I "want" are so messed up that if I tried to make decisions based on them, I'd probably end up being killed by an angry mob.

    Here's a list of just a few of the things I "want":

    1. Kill everyone who has ever angered me.
    2. Take control of the government and turn the citizens of this country into my slaves.
    3. To be worshiped.

    You're getting the idea, right? This is one of the reasons I stopped listening to my Fi. Listening to it has never gotten me anywhere good...
    Aren't we all born wanting basically that? That is the Id. As we grow older, we are supposed to develop the Ego and Super Ego, and I think to some degree you have. What you want is what the two year old inside all of us wants. It just sucks being dependent and bossed around like a two year old, so we take on responsibility in order to gain independence.

    You want your family to butt out of your business. You want security. You want your basic physical needs to be met, correct?

    Those are desires that won't incite pitchforks and torch-bearing mobs. I believe that they are attainable goals for you, but they are going to cost you some effort.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #74
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Aren't we all born wanting basically that? That is the Id. As we grow older, we are supposed to develop the Ego and Super Ego, and I think to some degree you have. What you want is what the two year old inside all of us wants. It just sucks being dependent and bossed around like a two year old, so we take on responsibility in order to gain independence.

    You want your family to butt out of your business. You want security. You want your basic physical needs to be met, correct?

    Those are desires that won't incite pitchforks and torch-bearing mobs. I believe that they are attainable goals for you, but they are going to cost you some effort.
    Okay, NOW you're making sense. Thanks.

    I suppose my problem is that, despite all the nice things I say to people... I've really only developed a primitive Ego and Super Ego. I'm still largely living out of Id-level consciousness. That is, fear of not having my physical needs met, and a desire to get rather than give. I probably need to develop my Ego a little further, establish my sense of identity enough that it's bigger than my instincts/desires. I mean, it barely even bothers me that I'm an irresponsible coward that drains others and doesn't do anything to further their own goals. In fact, I'm even okay with hypocrisy. I suppose I've got to do something with that...

    My Super-Ego is VERY primitive, though, manifesting in simple fear of punishment and often projected onto others rather than accepted as part of myself. I don't see much value in internalizing the Super-Ego, though, because it seems like the more complex it gets, the more it restricts you from doing what needs to be done. So I think keeping it simple is usually a pretty good policy.

    In fact, I think one of the things that drain me when I'm around other people is that I have to consciously force myself to focus on my Super-Ego, because I normally ignore it and I'm afraid they'll react badly if they see my Id.

  5. #75
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Heh. The ONLY reason I haven't sprayed some corrosive substance on the car of a particular person I dislike is because I don't want to experience the consequences.

    Super-ego has it's place, but I think it is difficult to develop when you are being oppressed, for lack of a better word, by the Super-Egos of others (in this case, your family). Or maybe, it can only be done at a very high price to the Ego, which comes with it's own set of problems.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #76
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Heh. The ONLY reason I haven't sprayed some corrosive substance on the car of a particular person I dislike is because I don't want to experience the consequences.

    Super-ego has it's place, but I think it is difficult to develop when you are being oppressed, for lack of a better word, by the Super-Egos of others (in this case, your family). Or maybe, it can only be done at a very high price to the Ego, which comes with it's own set of problems.
    Ah. That's so good to hear.

    Yes, I don't want to develop my Super-Ego at the expense of my Ego.

    I do think I need to work on developing a less diffuse sense of identity and goals, though. I really haven't focused much on who I am in terms of the world around me, honestly.

    If someone were to ask me who I am, I'd say something along the lines of:

    I'm a bit of a geek with an archetype obsession. I'm an INFJ in MBTI, an LII in Socionics, a 9w1 in Enneagram, a True Neutral (leaning towards Lawful Neutral) in alignment terms, and an Aries Sun with Libra Moon and Gemini Rising in Astrology. I have an IQ of 112. I'm also a liberal and an agnostic. I'm a very cautious person who is concerned with what others want and observing rules when it promotes a positive outcome, but yet am not bound by tradition.

    That's pretty much my answer to the question "Who am I" at this point....

  7. #77
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    You can't take this stuff so seriously. Just do it. A lot of this is a sort of game, and it takes that kind of detachment. It's really not failure if you "fail." Mistakes are an appropriate part of the process. You want to be in the process rather than observing. So proceed in some direction, any direction, just get up and do. Because you can't get anywhere just thinking about it. And your conclusions, although logical (this happens, then that will happen, then the other will happen, and therefore what's the use) can be completely wrong. Real life can change in a split second and do stuff you hadn't ever imagined at all. That's the fun of it.

  8. #78
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    You can't take this stuff so seriously. Just do it. A lot of this is a sort of game, and it takes that kind of detachment. It's really not failure if you "fail." Mistakes are an appropriate part of the process. You want to be in the process rather than observing. So proceed in some direction, any direction, just get up and do. Because you can't get anywhere just thinking about it. And your conclusions, although logical (this happens, then that will happen, then the other will happen, and therefore what's the use) can be completely wrong. Real life can change in a split second and do stuff you hadn't ever imagined at all. That's the fun of it.
    Okay, I tend to respond badly when people tell me to "just do," because in my experience just doing tends to result in punishment. Plus, I hear on television and from my mother all the time about how many things can go wrong if you "just do" without planning things out. It's very strongly discouraged. Even my early experiences in Elementary school taught me that you get punished for action, not for inaction.

    So essentially, my first instinct is to suspect that you want to get me in trouble, because you have something to gain from doing so, or else you just don't know any better than to get yourself and other people in trouble. I have a tendency to equate doing without understanding (and living in the moment) with "evil," and a lot of things that people call "evil," "stupid," "reckless," and "shallow" fall into that category.

    Where is the error in my assumptions and thought process? I think there must be one, but I can't find it...

  9. #79
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    I wrote this as a practical suggestion for Athenian but it got lost in the conversation, so I am reposting it and adding a little to it:

    Athenian,
    Why don't you brainstorm with yourself and make a list of all of the things that you like to do? Just write down everything that comes to mind. It doesn't have to make any sense at this point and could be as silly as "eat an apple while walking in pouring rain." Then take that list and see if you can find a theme within all of that stuff.
    As an example, I might write that I like to feed the cats, brush the cats, greet other people's dogs when I'm taking a walk, go bird watching, draw pictures of animals, photograph dogs, etc.
    So the theme would be animals and how I relate with them.
    After you make the list of the things that you like to do and you find a theme, you could research the sorts of jobs that there might be with someone with your interests.
    Even if you don't really want to go to school for a degree, maybe there is a career center at a university where you could go for a little career counseling.
    I know that feeling at loose ends must be difficult for you because, from what I understand of the J preference, not having resolution is challenging and frustrating.
    I am considerably older than you but I am going through this same process myself. My freelance journalism job has come to an abrupt end and print journalism is, for sure, not the career of the future.
    Good luck to you as you go through this experience.
    Oh, and just one comment about Asperger's syndrome. I just finished a book called "Look Me In The Eye," by John Elder Robison. The author has Asperger's syndrome. He is a brilliant man and he is able to accept his condition as part of him, not a definition of him. I don't think that you have Asperger's syndrome but I wanted you to know that it really isn't so terrible a thing to have.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  10. #80
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Okay, I tend to respond badly when people tell me to "just do," because in my experience just doing tends to result in punishment. Plus, I hear on television and from my mother all the time about how many things can go wrong if you "just do" without planning things out. It's very strongly discouraged. Even my early experiences in Elementary school taught me that you get punished for action, not for inaction.

    So essentially, my first instinct is to suspect that you want to get me in trouble, because you have something to gain from doing so, or else you just don't know any better than to get yourself and other people in trouble. I have a tendency to equate doing without understanding (and living in the moment) with "evil," and a lot of things that people call "evil," "stupid," "reckless," and "shallow" fall into that category.
    This is why I loathe Pinocchio - the Disney version anyway. I always identify with Jiminy Cricket and associate my XSFP mom and people like her with Pinocchio.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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