I don't love anything... thus, nothing makes sense.

[the state i am in]

True, but if Athenian truly is not depressed, does not have social anxiety, or any other condition, then Athenian is just going through the same crap we all go through. It's just life and we just have to do it despite all the horrible feelings we may experience along the way. In that case, you just have to suck it up and step out the door.

The support I got was: go to school or get a job. Okay, you've got a job, now pay me some rent. At some point you kind of have to start taking responsibility for yourself.

excuse me what does "have" mean? he "has" some negative feelings that don't immediately clean themselves. he doesn't understand himself or his situation very well, is confused, and needs serious help to deal with it bc he doesn't see any solution thru his own eyes. why be needlessly critical?

if he were more logical and less focused on his feelings, he would be more like an intj and probably have an easier go of it. he would accept the situation from a Te perspective and do a better job focusing on what he can control. but he's not, like other infjs, logic is less naturally under his conscious control, so help him get better at using Fe and continuing to improve his Fe management so he can get out there, stop fixating on specific negative judgments, open up, and get better information for Ni to use.

if he can clean up Fe a little bit, he'll sure as shit have a MUCH easier time using Ti productively. rather than destructively, justifying his worst fears and frustrations with false pseudo logic.

also, your last paragraph is irrelevant. perhaps you are upset that he is skating by easier than you did according to your standards of justice. but fuck that- he's struggling and helping him would be a better thing to do than criticizing him in a way that maybe satisfies your own desires but doesn't help him at all. unless you think tough love is the only answer to emotional frustration and struggle????? not to mention, it's not like you're in a situation where he's personally a drain on you, all take and no give. we're offering nothing but a few words of encouragement that are totally voluntary.

 

[Athenian200]

Well... I knew you all were going to say that, eventually.

Now shut up and leave me alone. I'll figure it out myself, thank you very much. You're all worthless. Thanks for nothing.

 

[cafe]

excuse me what does "have" mean? he "has" some negative feelings that don't immediately clean themselves. he doesn't understand himself or his situation very well, is confused, and needs serious help to deal with it bc he doesn't see any solution thru his own eyes. why be needlessly critical?

if he were more logical and less focused on his feelings, he would be more like an intj and probably have an easier go of it. he would accept the situation from a Te perspective and do a better job focusing on what he can control. but he's not, like other infjs, logic is less naturally under his conscious control, so help him get better at using Fe and continuing to improve his Fe management so he can get out there, stop fixating on specific negative judgments, open up, and get better information for Ni to use.

if he can clean up Fe a little bit, he'll sure as shit have a MUCH easier time using Ti productively. rather than destructively, justifying his worst fears and frustrations with false pseudo logic.

also, your last paragraph is irrelevant. perhaps you are upset that he is skating by easier than you did according to your standards of justice. but fuck that- he's struggling and helping him would be a better thing to do than criticizing him in a way that maybe satisfies your own desires but doesn't help him at all. unless you think tough love is the only answer to emotional frustration and struggle????? not to mention, it's not like you're in a situation where he's personally a drain on you, all take and no give. we're offering nothing but a few words of encouragement that are totally voluntary.

"have" means that normal, healthy adults who do not take responsibility for providing for their own needs are taking advantage of the people who are doing so. It sounds like those supporting Athenian do not want to continue to do so, but are doing so under duress.

Tough love, is of course, not the only answer to emotional frustration and struggle, but in the face of someone who is just too afraid to face normal life, it might be one of the better choices. To do otherwise seems kind of akin to enabling.

If Athenian is just venting, that's okay. If Athenian really does want some constructive advice, there is a lot of that here. If he really does need serious help, an internet forum is probably not the best place to get it.

 

[Tigerlily]

Well... I knew you all were going to say that, eventually.

Now shut up and leave me alone. I'll figure it out myself, thank you very much. You're all worthless. Thanks for nothing.

good evening to you too. *tips hat*

 

[BlackCat]

^ All of your responses imply that you are able to function well socially, Ath, but you aren't going out and doing it. Ponder on that for a moment without immediately answering with your list of responses.


Either (a) you have a legitimate reason for not being able to successfully work your way through society until you find 'your people' or (b) you're lying to yourself, thinking you have a legitimate reason, when really you're just a coward.

These are your options, Ath.

People have thrown out legitimate reasons for you earlier throughout the thread (depression et. al.) but you haven't really convinced people with the reasons that you see to be "legitimate." If you are happy with your life continuing on in exactly the same manner until people die and things must change, then that's totally cool, but the very fact that you created this thread suggests you are not happy with the current state of affairs.

So either (1) seek some legitimate explanations, or (2) accept that you are currently behaving in a cowardly way that's full of excuses, tell yourself this is unacceptable behaviour, and change your behaviour. If you don't do either of these nothing is going to change, Ath. This is nothing more than a factual observation of your circumstances.

No one is buying the "I'm too N to adapt to the S society" bit--there are plenty of people on this board who are very "out there" on the N continuum and have found their (nonconventional, of course) place in the world. You have not.

People are telling you this because your life could be very different if you went through the growing pains to grow into something that you want to be, Ath. None of your lists of reasons have passed the Bullshit DetectorTM for me, they don't appear to for several of the posters who have responded to your thread, so either (a) own up to your circumstances and do your best to work through them using whatever resources or medical labels that might enable you to do so, or (b) shrivel away from your dreams and accept that a lack of action results in a lack of growth and achievement in the ways that you want to grow in this world.

This.

You asked for help, they delivered. Now you're saying you can't take the truth?

 

[Athenian200]

This.

You asked for help, they delivered. Now you're saying you can't take the truth?

No, I just think it's useless to say so, because I think courage is stupid and cowardice is quite acceptable and natural for human beings.

It's just not helpful for a person who doesn't value courage or care if their behavior is thought immature because it avoids responsibility. Personally... I think responsibility is for suckers. Only an idiot takes responsibility without a fight. It should be a LAST resort, not a first resort. How many good politicians do you see that take responsibility, and how badly does it usually affect them when they do? Taking responsibility is like admitting defeat.

 

[Litvyak]

[Denis Leary quote]

God, that's hillarious. I was feeling awful, it's so much better now.

 

[cafe]

No, I just think it's useless to say so, because I think courage is stupid and cowardice is quite acceptable and natural for human beings.

It's just not helpful for a person who doesn't value courage or care if their behavior is thought immature because it avoids responsibility. Personally... I think responsibility is for suckers. Only an idiot takes responsibility without a fight. It should be a LAST resort, not a first resort. How many good politicians do you see that take responsibility, and how badly does it usually affect them when they do? Taking responsibility is like admitting defeat.

So you want people to sympathize with your desire to live a parasitic life and see you, instead of your host, as the victim?

 

[Athenian200]

So you want people to sympathize with your desire to live a parasitic life and see you, instead of your host, as the victim?

Well... honestly, yes.

That's one of the reasons I don't like trying to make decisions based on what I want or appeals to my values, rather than an understanding of the options involved, and how they'll make other people feel.

Because honestly, most of the things I "want" are so messed up that if I tried to make decisions based on them, I'd probably end up being killed by an angry mob.

Here's a list of just a few of the things I "want":

1. Kill everyone who has ever angered me.
2. Take control of the government and turn the citizens of this country into my slaves.
3. To be worshiped.

You're getting the idea, right? This is one of the reasons I stopped listening to my Fi. Those are the kind of values I have in that part of me. Listening to it has never gotten me anywhere good... and plus, the best way to avoid it is to look at the implications my decisions have for other people. If I think about my own feelings... well, that's never good for me.

 

[BlackCat]

You'll never end up doing that if you never socialize.

 

[Tigerlily]

God, that's hilarious. I was feeling awful, it's so much better now.

i took it out because i was looking for the video. ff to 2:27 for the quote live. can't really argue with his logic.

 

[Athenian200]

You'll never end up doing that if you never socialize.

True.

In fact, I think that's one of the reasons I sabotage myself. My Fe is trying to protect the world from what my Fi wants... by keeping me locked up where I am, rather than letting me run loose in the streets, potentially furthering my diabolical goals and hurting others. Basically, I think that listening to my own desires would cause me to hurt others.

To be honest, I may be more afraid of success than failure.

 

[cafe]

Well... honestly, yes.

That's one of the reasons I don't like trying to make decisions based on what I want or appeals to my values, rather than an understanding of the options involved.

Because honestly, most of the things I "want" are so messed up that if I tried to make decisions based on them, I'd probably end up being killed by an angry mob.

Here's a list of just a few of the things I "want":

1. Kill everyone who has ever angered me.
2. Take control of the government and turn the citizens of this country into my slaves.
3. To be worshiped.

You're getting the idea, right? This is one of the reasons I stopped listening to my Fi. Listening to it has never gotten me anywhere good...

Aren't we all born wanting basically that? That is the Id. As we grow older, we are supposed to develop the Ego and Super Ego, and I think to some degree you have. What you want is what the two year old inside all of us wants. It just sucks being dependent and bossed around like a two year old, so we take on responsibility in order to gain independence.

You want your family to butt out of your business. You want security. You want your basic physical needs to be met, correct?

Those are desires that won't incite pitchforks and torch-bearing mobs. I believe that they are attainable goals for you, but they are going to cost you some effort.

 

[Athenian200]

Aren't we all born wanting basically that? That is the Id. As we grow older, we are supposed to develop the Ego and Super Ego, and I think to some degree you have. What you want is what the two year old inside all of us wants. It just sucks being dependent and bossed around like a two year old, so we take on responsibility in order to gain independence.

You want your family to butt out of your business. You want security. You want your basic physical needs to be met, correct?

Those are desires that won't incite pitchforks and torch-bearing mobs. I believe that they are attainable goals for you, but they are going to cost you some effort.

Okay, NOW you're making sense. Thanks.

I suppose my problem is that, despite all the nice things I say to people... I've really only developed a primitive Ego and Super Ego. I'm still largely living out of Id-level consciousness. That is, fear of not having my physical needs met, and a desire to get rather than give. I probably need to develop my Ego a little further, establish my sense of identity enough that it's bigger than my instincts/desires. I mean, it barely even bothers me that I'm an irresponsible coward that drains others and doesn't do anything to further their own goals. In fact, I'm even okay with hypocrisy. I suppose I've got to do something with that...

My Super-Ego is VERY primitive, though, manifesting in simple fear of punishment and often projected onto others rather than accepted as part of myself. I don't see much value in internalizing the Super-Ego, though, because it seems like the more complex it gets, the more it restricts you from doing what needs to be done. So I think keeping it simple is usually a pretty good policy.

In fact, I think one of the things that drain me when I'm around other people is that I have to consciously force myself to focus on my Super-Ego, because I normally ignore it and I'm afraid they'll react badly if they see my Id.

 

[cafe]

Heh. The ONLY reason I haven't sprayed some corrosive substance on the car of a particular person I dislike is because I don't want to experience the consequences.

Super-ego has it's place, but I think it is difficult to develop when you are being oppressed, for lack of a better word, by the Super-Egos of others (in this case, your family). Or maybe, it can only be done at a very high price to the Ego, which comes with it's own set of problems.

 

[Athenian200]

Heh. The ONLY reason I haven't sprayed some corrosive substance on the car of a particular person I dislike is because I don't want to experience the consequences.

Super-ego has it's place, but I think it is difficult to develop when you are being oppressed, for lack of a better word, by the Super-Egos of others (in this case, your family). Or maybe, it can only be done at a very high price to the Ego, which comes with it's own set of problems.

Ah. That's so good to hear.

Yes, I don't want to develop my Super-Ego at the expense of my Ego.

I do think I need to work on developing a less diffuse sense of identity and goals, though. I really haven't focused much on who I am in terms of the world around me, honestly.

If someone were to ask me who I am, I'd say something along the lines of:

I'm a bit of a geek with an archetype obsession. I'm an INFJ in MBTI, an LII in Socionics, a 9w1 in Enneagram, a True Neutral (leaning towards Lawful Neutral) in alignment terms, and an Aries Sun with Libra Moon and Gemini Rising in Astrology. I have an IQ of 112. I'm also a liberal and an agnostic. I'm a very cautious person who is concerned with what others want and observing rules when it promotes a positive outcome, but yet am not bound by tradition.

That's pretty much my answer to the question "Who am I" at this point....

 

[Tiltyred]

You can't take this stuff so seriously. Just do it. A lot of this is a sort of game, and it takes that kind of detachment. It's really not failure if you "fail." Mistakes are an appropriate part of the process. You want to be in the process rather than observing. So proceed in some direction, any direction, just get up and do. Because you can't get anywhere just thinking about it. And your conclusions, although logical (this happens, then that will happen, then the other will happen, and therefore what's the use) can be completely wrong. Real life can change in a split second and do stuff you hadn't ever imagined at all. That's the fun of it.

 

[Athenian200]

You can't take this stuff so seriously. Just do it. A lot of this is a sort of game, and it takes that kind of detachment. It's really not failure if you "fail." Mistakes are an appropriate part of the process. You want to be in the process rather than observing. So proceed in some direction, any direction, just get up and do. Because you can't get anywhere just thinking about it. And your conclusions, although logical (this happens, then that will happen, then the other will happen, and therefore what's the use) can be completely wrong. Real life can change in a split second and do stuff you hadn't ever imagined at all. That's the fun of it.

Okay, I tend to respond badly when people tell me to "just do," because in my experience just doing tends to result in punishment. Plus, I hear on television and from my mother all the time about how many things can go wrong if you "just do" without planning things out. It's very strongly discouraged. Even my early experiences in Elementary school taught me that you get punished for action, not for inaction.

So essentially, my first instinct is to suspect that you want to get me in trouble, because you have something to gain from doing so, or else you just don't know any better than to get yourself and other people in trouble. I have a tendency to equate doing without understanding (and living in the moment) with "evil," and a lot of things that people call "evil," "stupid," "reckless," and "shallow" fall into that category.

Where is the error in my assumptions and thought process? I think there must be one, but I can't find it...

 

[Walking Tourist]

I wrote this as a practical suggestion for Athenian but it got lost in the conversation, so I am reposting it and adding a little to it:

Athenian,
Why don't you brainstorm with yourself and make a list of all of the things that you like to do? Just write down everything that comes to mind. It doesn't have to make any sense at this point and could be as silly as "eat an apple while walking in pouring rain." Then take that list and see if you can find a theme within all of that stuff.
As an example, I might write that I like to feed the cats, brush the cats, greet other people's dogs when I'm taking a walk, go bird watching, draw pictures of animals, photograph dogs, etc.
So the theme would be animals and how I relate with them.
After you make the list of the things that you like to do and you find a theme, you could research the sorts of jobs that there might be with someone with your interests.
Even if you don't really want to go to school for a degree, maybe there is a career center at a university where you could go for a little career counseling.
I know that feeling at loose ends must be difficult for you because, from what I understand of the J preference, not having resolution is challenging and frustrating.
I am considerably older than you but I am going through this same process myself. My freelance journalism job has come to an abrupt end and print journalism is, for sure, not the career of the future.
Good luck to you as you go through this experience.
Oh, and just one comment about Asperger's syndrome. I just finished a book called "Look Me In The Eye," by John Elder Robison. The author has Asperger's syndrome. He is a brilliant man and he is able to accept his condition as part of him, not a definition of him. I don't think that you have Asperger's syndrome but I wanted you to know that it really isn't so terrible a thing to have.

 

[cafe]

Okay, I tend to respond badly when people tell me to "just do," because in my experience just doing tends to result in punishment. Plus, I hear on television and from my mother all the time about how many things can go wrong if you "just do" without planning things out. It's very strongly discouraged. Even my early experiences in Elementary school taught me that you get punished for action, not for inaction.

So essentially, my first instinct is to suspect that you want to get me in trouble, because you have something to gain from doing so, or else you just don't know any better than to get yourself and other people in trouble. I have a tendency to equate doing without understanding (and living in the moment) with "evil," and a lot of things that people call "evil," "stupid," "reckless," and "shallow" fall into that category.

This is why I loathe Pinocchio - the Disney version anyway. I always identify with Jiminy Cricket and associate my XSFP mom and people like her with Pinocchio.