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  1. #31
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    If you love yourself, quite a lot of the other stuff comes naturally.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Well, the thing is... after thinking about it, I'm just frustrated with the way reality seems to be laid out for me.

    I do see a need to go out and do something. The problem is that I just don't "get it." I don't know what it is, but it seems like whenever I go to places with a bunch of people, it seems like the entire structure has already arranged itself without including me in a major way, and a place just seems to appear in it for me to participate in a minimal, simplistic way.

    I end up finding this unsatisfying, but don't see any opportunity to do things any differently, and if I try, I end up being ignored or rebuffed back into my place. It's like there's... too much structure in the wrong places, and too little structure in the right places.

    The best way to describe it is that the way people connect to each other seems to make little or no sense to me. I have a very good abstract understanding of it from reading, and a very simple practical understanding of it (enough to interact with teachers, ask people for the time, and pay clerks in a store). The problem is that when I look at more casual interactions, there seem to be no reasonable patterns.

    A bunch of the time, the kids just happen to have known each other since elementary school, or they're family, and that's why they're so comfortable with each other. There really are an alarming number of people who never seem to go beyond their childhood friends, their ties to family, and the dating pool.

    Which is probably why it's so hard to find information on making friends... quite a few people, especially Introverted ones like me, simply don't do it and end up finding everyone they need to find through their family circle. The thing is, I don't want to be that kind of person anymore, but I've spent so much time BEING that kind of person that I don't know how to be any other way. The frustrating thing is, that if I didn't have a need that went against what my family was okay with, I probably wouldn't be considering this at all.

    I'm aware that making a new friend out of a stranger involves the ability to come across as casual, but I struggle with that because I tend to appear focused, which often causes people to react to me in a manner more reminiscent of how they'd respond to being approached by a police officer or inspector than a friend. Well, not everyone, I suppose (a very few actually approach ME and seem comfortable, yet those are so few and far between enough that I can't rely on that), but enough that I'm concerned about it.

    The main thing I want to figure out, is how to tell ahead of time which kind of people are open to being spoken to by strangers, and which kinds might freak out and feel threatened if someone talks to them. I really don't want to get in trouble or make people think I'm a creep... sigh. This is why I wish I had learned some of these skills earlier, when I was a kid and people expected me to screw up and learn from it... not NOW when people expect me to get serious, know what I'm doing, and take full responsibility for other people's reactions to me.

    It's extremely debilitating, the weight of knowing that I'm an adult and I'm totally accountable for how other people perceive and respond to me, that ignorance isn't an acceptable excuse anymore. I don't understand how anyone can have a cheerful attitude or ever want to take any risks once they REALLY understand that...

    Another thing that I find irritating is that most people seem far more comfortable with an activity focus than a focus on people themselves, and find that this is enough to facilitate connections between themselves and others. But it doesn't work well for me, because when I find myself in such situations, I seem to end up focusing totally on the assigned activity and not feeling any connection the people I interacted with during it.

    I end up needing a kind of odd focus... a need to deal with people personally, but yet in a less intimate way than in a romantic relationship. Not many people seem to be able to understand that level of connection, or if they do they only seem to offer it to family members or old friends. I just don't appreciate or understand the things most people connect to each other over, or even feel the very way they connect within me. I end up having to fake it, which makes me resent my "friends" so much that I don't want to be around them anymore than I have to.

    There are just... too many roadblocks for me, and it doesn't seem like I've been given a fair shot at getting experience interacting with people in the manner I'd like. I feel like I was cheated out of something I should have gotten with the help of my parents at an earlier age, and that now that I'm on my own it's too late to make up for it and I'm kind of stuck.

    On some level, I feel that it would be a tremendous help if I had one friend already who would just sort of... show me the ropes, so to speak. Put things in perspective as I go through the situation so I can get a feel for things. Maybe even introduce me to people so I can get the ball rolling without coming in as an intruder/outsider. But I don't have that...

  3. #33
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm aware that making a new friend out of a stranger involves the ability to come across as casual, but I struggle with that because I tend to appear focused, which often causes people to react to me in a manner more reminiscent of how they'd respond to being approached by a police officer or inspector than a friend. Well, not everyone, I suppose (a very few actually approach ME and seem comfortable, yet those are so few and far between enough that I can't rely on that), but enough that I'm concerned about it.

    The main thing I want to figure out, is how to tell ahead of time which kind of people are open to being spoken to by strangers, and which kinds might freak out and feel threatened if someone talks to them. I really don't want to get in trouble or make people think I'm a creep... sigh. This is why I wish I had learned some of these skills earlier, when I was a kid and people expected me to screw up and learn from it... not NOW when people expect me to get serious, know what I'm doing, and take full responsibility for other people's reactions to me.
    I'm not sure how to describe the signals of receptiveness, but I can tell you how I became good at giving and receiving them. In early adolescence I let my instincts teach me lots of things, by imagining various scenarios with my back to a mirror and then turning around to see my facial expressions and body language. That way, I learned how to recognize feelings in other people and display them purposefully myself. However, I learned the appearances intuitively and holistically, not by sharp observation of the individual components, so I can't put it into words. The same learning technique might work for you, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Another thing that I find irritating is that most people seem far more comfortable with an activity focus than a focus on people themselves, and find that this is enough to facilitate connections between themselves and others. But it doesn't work well for me, because when I find myself in such situations, I seem to end up focusing totally on the assigned activity and not feeling any connection the people I interacted with during it.

    I end up needing a kind of odd focus... a need to deal with people personally, but yet in a less intimate way than in a romantic relationship. Not many people seem to be able to understand that level of connection, or if they do they only seem to offer it to family members or old friends. I just don't appreciate or understand the things most people connect to each other over, or even feel the very way they connect within me. I end up having to fake it, which makes me resent my "friends" so much that I don't want to be around them anymore than I have to.
    There are not many clubs devoted to deep, intensely personal conversations, except for group therapy. Outside of a confidential setting, it takes time and shared experiences to develop the requisite trust for the vulnerability that accompanies emotional intimacy.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  4. #34
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    I'm not sure how to describe the signals of receptiveness, but I can tell you how I became good at giving and receiving them. In early adolescence I let my instincts teach me lots of things, by imagining various scenarios with my back to a mirror and then turning around to see my facial expressions and body language. That way, I learned how to recognize feelings in other people and display them purposefully myself. However, I learned the appearances intuitively and holistically, not by sharp observation of the individual components, so I can't put it into words. The same learning technique might work for you, though.
    Ah, thanks. Might be worth looking into.

    There are not many clubs devoted to deep, intensely personal conversations, except for group therapy. Outside of a confidential setting, it takes time and shared experiences to develop the requisite trust for the vulnerability that accompanies emotional intimacy.
    I suppose I find that confusing because of the fact that I don't value shared experiences much... sigh.

    I really, really don't appreciate human nature. It seems too confining and ridiculous.

  5. #35
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    I can't believe I'm saying this, but have you considered playing a MMORPG such as Everquest II or World of Warcraft? I lost a great deal of time to those kind of games, but it was not a complete loss. I gained respect for the bonding that occurs during an intense experience where you're relying on someone else, without actually having my life endangered by real combat. That experience then gave me a metaphor that enabled me to understand the value of shared experiences in trust-building, which helped me scale the importance of trust in my mental model of emotional intimacy, which helped me measure the importance of discretion by the difference in how much people share in confidential settings.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  6. #36
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Why not just research the fastest growing occupations that only require 2 or so years of school or training and start narrowing down what you want to go for? There are lots of introvert friendly positions out there that don't require extreme dedication. Most workers aren't especially passionate about what they do, it's not a requirement.

    If it's a job you want, do you really have any other choice?

    Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2008-09 Edition
    Tomorrow's Jobs

  7. #37
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Why not just research the fastest growing occupations that only require 2 or so years of school or training and start narrowing down what you want to go for? There are lots of introvert friendly positions out there that don't require extreme dedication. Most workers aren't especially passionate about what they do, it's not a requirement.

    If it's a job you want, do you really have any other choice?

    Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2008-09 Edition
    Tomorrow's Jobs
    Oh, god. They're not even including a high school diploma level anymore. I can't believe they're trying to force me to go to school, I can't HANDLE school at this level. I can't deal with the amount of studying required to pass an SAT, and I struggle too much with math to even take most first-year college courses.

    I'm just going to have to take whatever I can get, I can't deal with anymore school. I just can't.

  8. #38
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I don't exactly know how's the situation in the US, but here in malls/commercial centres they're almost always looking for clerks/waiters. That seems to be a job suitable for your preferences, since it's sufficiently stable and not excessively demanding. Idk tho I got the impression you live in a fairly rural area which would make finding a mall slightly harder perhaps. In that case often wood cutters/laborers and farmers look for apprentieces, I've done that for some time and it was one of the most rewarding jobs I've experienced. I agree that I think often seems like the request for education has shoot up for no real reason at all.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #39
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Athenian do you think that this is a consequence of Ni at work and weak Fi ?
    assuming Athenian agrees:


    Proof that all people use all functions. Humans cant function without feelings. Even spock has to have a "feeling" about why the hell he gets out of bed in the morning.

    Ive also noticed that INFJs are way more prone to this than say ENTJs or INTPs (people who supposedly have low feeling). I think its because many INFJs develope an unhealthy mistrust of Fe.....thus the 4th position Fe/Fi of EXTJ and IXTP tends to be stronger than the Fe of some of the NiTi INFJs.

    The point is, NiTi is extremely unhealthy. No one can live like that. I think you should just do, and then see what makes you react. When you react, it will awaken you to personal beliefs you have suppressed. Its kind of like saying your indifferent and then flipping a coin, only to then get really upset about how the coin decided for you. Thats what you need! you need some F.

  10. #40
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't exactly know how's the situation in the US, but here in malls/commercial centres they're almost always looking for clerks/waiters. That seems to be a job suitable for your preferences, since it's sufficiently stable and not excessively demanding. Idk tho I got the impression you live in a fairly rural area which would make finding a mall slightly harder perhaps. In that case often wood cutters/laborers and farmers look for apprentieces, I've done that for some time and it was one of the most rewarding jobs I've experienced. I agree that I think often seems like the request for education has shoot up for no real reason at all.
    Well, it's not really rural, it's kind of... well, suburban. There are malls a few miles away that I could get to, that might be worth looking into. There's a city, it's just not as accessible for me because I'd have to take a trip to go into it, and I'm uncomfortable running around getting into things alone, especially with my mother advising me against it. If I could get an interview at a mall before I went, though... yeah, that would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    assuming Athenian agrees:


    Proof that all people use all functions. Humans cant function without feelings. Even spock has to have a "feeling" about why the hell he gets out of bed in the morning.

    Ive also noticed that INFJs are way more prone to this than say ENTJs or INTPs (people who supposedly have low feeling). I think its because many INFJs develope an unhealthy mistrust of Fe.....thus the 4th position Fe/Fi of EXTJ and IXTP tends to be stronger than the Fe of some of the NiTi INFJs.

    The point is, NiTi is extremely unhealthy. No one can live like that. I think you should just do, and then see what makes you react. When you react, it will awaken you to personal beliefs you have suppressed. Its kind of like saying your indifferent and then flipping a coin, only to then get really upset about how the coin decided for you. Thats what you need! you need some F.
    I don't think I need Fi. I think I'm too smart to need Fi, no offense. I'm not crazy enough to embrace THAT. People keep trying to pull it out of me, and it just won't come. It's not how I operate. I do think I need more Fe, though. I just need to find a way to cultivate it... maybe I should try to find situations that will allow me to take advantage of my Fe. That's probably the solution, though I've been afraid of it. It's just that I've been taught not to trust people, and it's hard to figure out how to start now. Well... I guess I could always try to use some kind of research studies to convince my mother that I need more social interaction than I'm getting. Maybe that would work.

    Listening to my own feelings doesn't get me very far, because usually what I hear when I do is, "I'm lonely and I want people to pay attention to me!" Which doesn't really help me very much, because there's very little I can do about that right now (though I'm trying to get into a position to address it).

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