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  1. #21
    Ginkgo
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    Purpose cannot come from Self.

    Purpose must come from others. This is what 'love' is.

    Of course, you cannot find purpose if you don't go out and look for it.

    At which point, Purpose must come from Self.

    Interesting paradox.

    You said that all you want is basic survival needs. However, you are also interested in self-realization because you are on this web site. I think you should be treated for depression.

  2. #22
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think usehername gives fantastic advice.

    i get down in the dumps when i feel cut-off from others. i need some enps to get me going, at times, and then i feel immediately recharged. we get so focused, so zoomed in on specific details/relationships, it's easy for us to become fixated and stop flowing freely.

    taking risks is the biggest challenge for infjs. without them you gain very little. finding people who will bring out the best in you and support you is the first and foremost priority in the life of an infj. you seriously evolve soooo much faster when this happens. you don't just have motivation and meaning, you have to make it by making individual choices along the way. accepting that you are driven by something very different than most people is great, but there's more out there to wake up your Fe and make you feel more whole (read: connected).

    we need to talk and get our opinions out of us so that we can see them. we need to use extraverted judgment to recognize context, to navigate and find our way. without having something external to lead us we are lost. such is life as an ij. when we get that, our attention to detail and ability to arrange and synthesize extremely complex information makes us brilliant and helpful to others. it's a lot easier to feel good about yourself when you are able to positively impact others, when meaning comes from your action and externalization and ARTICULATION/expression in the world. bc our introverted judgment is unconscious and difficult to control unless we are performing at peak efficiency.

    also, like seemingly all the infjs here, i flip flop like a motherfucker. i just started a masters program and have regretted it four or five times, then i take a nap or have my s.o. smack some sense into me, then i'm happy again. the idea of a research paper in english seems utterly pointless to me, the idea of "producing knowledge" sounds embarrassingly naive. but with that said, i'm still reading whitman and dickinson (which, maybe not at the moment, but i DO want to do). i'm still taking a class in rhetoric that, while not as perfect and challenging as i would like, gives me a forum to arrange and articulate my absolute BEST ideas. i'm still working towards a degree that will improve my job prospects in the future, if i have to make some moves (which may or may not be necessary). i'm still bettering myself in teh social sense, forcing myself to be a little more disciplined (read: stressed) than i like for peak happiness, but fuck it, it's time to get something done. prove to myself and others that i have something to show them that they could never see on their own. and i'm still exploring somehting near and dear to me i would put off without more external structure such as this.

  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    You love security, independence, solitude, and leisure time. Ain't nuthin' wrong with that. Or if there is, we've got the same problem.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    we need to use extraverted judgment to recognize context, to navigate and find our way. without having something external to lead us we are lost. such is life as an ij. when we get that, our attention to detail and ability to arrange and synthesize extremely complex information makes us brilliant and helpful to others.
    This completely describes my personality right down to the core. I work faster and better when I am placed into an external structure, particularly with competition. The reason why I rely so much on my organization skills and deadlines is that it helps me process my decisions and implement them right into action.

    I lack a rigid internal order (my Ni perceptions and insights are laying everywhere!), and I often feel increasingly scatter-brained in a highly flexible environment.



    Please. Just shoot me now.

    I need an external goal to function properly. Even if it's vague.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Functional Preferences: Ni, Te/Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, Si, Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  5. #25
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    This completely describes my personality right down to the core. I work faster and better when I am placed into an external structure, particularly with competition. The reason why I rely so much on my organization skills and deadlines is that it helps me process my decisions and implement them right into action.
    this is what makes us chart-the-course vs in-charge. we don't go blindly charging in with action, instead we lead with Ni. but we desire/need to create structure around ourselves to make us work at peak performance. and we are skilled at recognizing the quality of environments that will do that for us.

    I lack a rigid internal order (my Ni perceptions and insights are laying everywhere!), and I often feel increasingly scatter-brained in a highly flexible environment.

    I need an external goal to function properly.
    now imagine switching Te with Fe. does this increase your sympathy for infjs? who just want to create harmony, beautiful feelings, aesthetic richness, ethical purity, and moment-to-moment holistic perfection? wtf kind of goal is THAT supposed to be? where to fucking begin???? (and who spend their time JUDGING their goals soooo much rather than using their judgment within the framework of a goal to accomplish something regardless? it is so much easier for Te to set a goal and go, to use the constraints productively, than Fe, which leads me to sometimes wallow in judging the wrong questions for way too long and not beginning on something (read: anything!))

    and yes, Ni is a fucking mess. i have to write things down immediately or it may take anywhere from 1 to 1001 days before the shipped package arrives to the right doorstep. it really does just sift, bc it travels along such finely detailed paths that it takes a while to become properly integrated within the larger framework, altho, once that happens, it gets extremely difficult to remember what is down there and where we put specific things.

  6. #26
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I have no wish to be, and I have no wish to do. I just want to survive. That's it.
    It's either that

    1) you're lying to yourself, or
    2) this thread is totally meaningless, since you've accepted a situation you do not wish to change.

    I'd say it's number 1. Correct me if I'm wrong.

  7. #27
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    now imagine switching Te with Fe. does this increase your sympathy for infjs? who just want to create harmony, beautiful feelings, aesthetic richness, ethical purity, and moment-to-moment holistic perfection? wtf kind of goal is THAT supposed to be? where to fucking begin???? (and who spend their time JUDGING their goals soooo much rather than using their judgment within the framework of a goal to accomplish something regardless? it is so much easier for Te to set a goal and go, to use the constraints productively, than Fe, which leads me to sometimes wallow in judging the wrong questions for way too long and not beginning on something (read: anything!))
    Hmmmm, I'll look into this more. I haven't thought enough about it, but these abilities seem to be very well-suited for creating social harmony. It is indeed pointing out the obvious, and I agree with your prior statement that there is a place in this world for an INFJ's preferences. What is commonly thought of as ambition (Te & Fi) in this society, leaves out many of whom do not meet these standards. They must now redefine this value for themselves. In essence, they are paving a private road: the path least taken. Jennifer has excellent tips on that.

    Preferring Te did help me assimilate into the 'mainstream' culture, while having other quirks (re: Ni) created some lengthy conflicts during my encounters in a Si-dom institution. [My Fi also frequently clashed with my family's Fe leanings.] I was always told how I should think and feel, and it lead me to reject my own instincts early on in life. So I basically focused on meeting the requirements, then created numerous strategies without a real internal guide. This worked until my Ni & Fi needs grew stronger as the outside situations became more complex, and demanded more energy. I knew right then I simply could not keep living this way, after I finally broke down at the age of 15.

    It was a long and heart-breaking journey to discover myself. Not many people (including my immediate family) supported this option, and they never ceased to vocalize their objection when I needed external guidance the most. [What happened? Why are you suddenly being lazy and disorganized? Why are you not working? What's with your attitude?] Again and again, I had to 're-negotiate' my most delicate issues, while desperately wishing to preserve and explore my own world, in solitude, for once.

    So I sympathize with anyone undertaking this experience. It's not simple breaking the common trends when you have little support, especially if you are uncertain that you may not be able to use your extroverted judgment the way you desire. "Permanent stagnation", comes to mind. Where's the finish-line? And what does it mean? How do I fit into the picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    and yes, Ni is a fucking mess. i have to write things down immediately or it may take anywhere from 1 to 1001 days before the shipped package arrives to the right doorstep. it really does just sift, bc it travels along such finely detailed paths that it takes a while to become properly integrated within the larger framework, altho, once that happens, it gets extremely difficult to remember what is down there and where we put specific things.
    Double the frustration.

    Triple the mess.

    I also get bombarded with endless visions at once and without Te to control the data, my Ni will immediately soak in all those ideas until there's nothing left. The issue I have with sharing my insights is that I genuinely dislike having other people narrow down my thoughts for me. (I'm outwardly judgmental, yet inwardly flexible.) I love keeping hundreds of internal options open just in case I need them for the future, so I could mentally adapt as my goals demand of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    this is what makes us chart-the-course vs in-charge. we don't go blindly charging in with action, instead we lead with Ni. but we desire/need to create structure around ourselves to make us work at peak performance. and we are skilled at recognizing the quality of environments that will do that for us.
    And the trick is to recognize how that habit affects us. I never realized how much I depended on those structures to get through on a daily basis, until recently. I'm still learning more about my version of introverted intuition, such as why I tend to see things backwards from the ending to the beginning, or why I'm incredibly open-minded.

    Kalach mentioned the interaction styles in another thread; it's been a major blessing in solving the many unknowns.

    I suppose, after all that self-discovery and years of forcing myself into the wrong mindsets (ISTJ, ISFJ, ENFP), I cannot imagine being anyone else. Sure, this will not affect my ambitious, decisive persona, but knowing that you could see and do things your way, and still meet your definition of success is refreshing.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
    SLOAN: rCoa|I|
    Functional Preferences: Ni, Te/Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, Si, Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  8. #28
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Hmmmm, I'll look into this more. I haven't thought enough about it, but these abilities seem to be very well-suited for creating social harmony. It is indeed pointing out the obvious, and I agree with your prior statement that there is a place in this world for an INFJ's preferences. What is commonly thought of as ambition in this society includes Te and Fi, and for those who do not meet these standards must redefine this value. In essence, they are paving a private road: the path least taken. Jennifer has excellent tips on that.

    Preferring Te did help me assimilate into the 'mainstream' culture, while having other quirks (re: Ni) created some lengthy conflicts during encounters in a Si-dom institution. [My Fi, in addition, frequently clashed with my family's Fe leanings.] I was always told how I should think and feel, and it lead me to reject my own instincts early on in life. So I basically focused on meeting the requirements, then created numerous strategies without a real internal guide. This worked until my Ni & Fi needs grew stronger as the outside situations became more complex, and demanded more energy. I knew right then I simply could not keep living this way, after I finally broke down at the age of 15.

    It was a long and heart-breaking journey to discover myself. Not many people (including my immediate family) supported this option, and they never ceased to vocalize their objection when I needed external guidance the most. [What happened? Why are you suddenly being lazy and disorganized? Why are you not working? What's with your attitude?] Again and again, I had to 're-negotiate' my most delicate issues, while desperately wishing to preserve and explore my own world, in solitude, for once.

    So I sympathize with anyone undertaking this experience. It's not simple breaking the common trends when you have little support, especially if you are uncertain that you may not be able to use your extroverted judgment the way you desire. "Permanent stagnation", comes to mind. Where's the finish-line? And what does it mean? How do I fit into the picture?



    Double the frustration.

    Triple the mess.

    I also get bombarded with endless visions at once and without Te to control the data, my Ni will immediately soak in all those ideas until there's nothing left. The issue I have with sharing my insights is that I genuinely dislike having other people narrow down my thoughts for me. (I'm outwardly judgmental, yet inwardly flexible.) I love keeping hundreds of internal options open just in case I need them for the future, so I could mentally adapt as my goals demand of me.



    And the trick is to consciously recognize that quality. I never realized how much I depended on those structures to get through on a daily basis! I'm still learning more about my version of introverted intuition, such as why I tend to see things backwards from the ending to the beginning.

    Kalach mentioned the interaction styles in another thread; it's been a major blessing in solving the many unknowns.

    I suppose, after all that self-discovery and years of forcing myself into the wrong mindsets (ISTJ, ISFJ, ENFP), I cannot imagine being anyone else. Sure, this will not affect my ambitious, decisive persona, but knowing that you could see and do things your way, and still meet your definition of success is refreshing.
    I'm not alone!



    EDIT: Also, Athenian, I can completely relate to your OP.
    Last edited by poppy; 09-19-2009 at 01:46 PM.
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  9. #29
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Ahh....sigh. This topic has plagued me for pretty much my entire life. Needless to say, Athenian, I can relate 100% to your OP as it relates to career/making a living/surviving in this world. It's been the giant thorn - no, much bigger than a thorn - in my side for my entire life. It's an ongoing theme for me, and I believe it will be for life, but I will say I have different perspectives on all of it now, and feel I worked through a lot of the stuff about 5 yrs ago -- at least, worked through it to the extent that it does not weigh me down now like it did then, and I was able to move from cynicism and minor depression into a healthier outlook about all of it.

    Others have written a lot about all of this already, and I think there's a lot of excellent info already in the thread. Just wanted to hop in quickly and say I understand the various dilemmas. It can be a hard thing to come to terms with, and to wrap your head around.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #30
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    we need to talk and get our opinions out of us so that we can see them. we need to use extraverted judgment to recognize context, to navigate and find our way. without having something external to lead us we are lost. such is life as an ij.
    Absolutely. Which is, in part, why doing things without some sort of structure, is extremely difficult for me. If you game me a round peg and a square hole and gave me a deadline by which point that peg better be through hole or else you will be displeased, you can bet your arse it'd be through that hole by the time the deadline came around.

    But if you gave me a round peg, a square hole, all the time in the world to try to fit the peg through the hole, and told me the task was of little importance to you, that whole task would sit and gather dust for a long time until I felt curious enough to try to solve the puzzle myself.



    And yes, Athenian, I've been where you are and I share similar views about my life right now. I just want to get a regular, steady job, get a place to live, and make it without anyone else's financial help right now. That's all I want. Until I have done this, I won't feel prepared to persue any bigger thing that interests me. Have to get warmed up, first. Other people are more suited to jumping in head-first and anyone in their way needs to look out!

    People like us, we have to take baby steps into reality. It's really easy to get complacent. And if we're not all that accustomed to handling the rest of real life (because for whatever reason, we have never had to--sheltered childhood, very supportive family, natural disposition to hide one's head in the sand when faced with something uncomfortable), then the whole process can seem rather daunting and pointless. So I encuorage you to take baby steps first. If the book club meets only once a month, go once a month. You might meet people there who you connect with, and then you can meet more often. If you seem to enjoy the technology group, meet with them. Even if you're just talking about technical stuff the entire time, you are still learning valueable interpersonal cues while in the process of participating in discussion. If there is anything you enjoy (you don't have to love it, just derive some mild enjoyment from it), try to do something related to it. You don't have to have a big passion, and you absolutely do not have to commit yourself in the long-term. If you see something that looks remotely interesting, try it just to see what it's like.

    You don't have to make a big leap all at once. Just take small steps and ease your way into things. Maybe you'll find that once you get going, you'll not want to stop.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

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