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  1. #41
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    We can only do our best to try and understand through scientific evidence.

    but are they self aware, can a dolphin contemplate it's own impending death?
    i don't know, i just don't think it's possible for anyone to tell if something else is self aware. i don't think self awareness can be used as a justification for/against eating animals, because it seems basically unknowable.

    Eating meat for survival brings new life though, so not sure about that.
    yeah, respect is probably not the right word. maybe compassion. i just think that by killing the animal or knowing it was killed for you, you have to enter a grey area in regards to life, you have to give up some compassion for life. that is just my feeling.

  2. #42
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    For those that don't mind eating dolphin, dog, apes, do you have a problem with cannibalism?

    What prevents you from cannibalism but does not prevent you from eating other intelligent animals?
    Because I assume that there is something special about human life, regardless of the mental capacities of any individual human relative to animals. No, I can't objectively support that hypothesis, but I choose to act and think as if it is true because I think all alternative assumptions are depressing and dangerous. And on a pragmatic level, cannibalism results in societal breakdown and usually leads to severe mental trauma (at least among those raised within a society I would wish to belong to) and degenerative brain diseases.

    I would probably prefer not to eat dolphins, apes or dogs for reasons of arbitrary emotional/empathetic attachment, but I would wholeheartedly support the right of others to do so, provided we are not talking about an endangered species.

  3. #43
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because I assume that there is something special about human life, regardless of the mental capacities of any individual human relative to animals. No, I can't objectively support that hypothesis, but I choose to act and think as if it is true because I think all alternative assumptions are depressing and dangerous.
    What about alien life? what if sentient, intelligent, emotional and delicious beings objectively on par with humans came to earth in peace, would you feel comfortable eating them?
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  4. #44
    Sniffles
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    *They call him Flipper, Flipper, tastier than chicken*

  5. #45
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfisher View Post
    yes, i agree with that.
    here is a thought - even lesser animals are aware of death and have self-preservation instincts. lesser animals do try to avoid being killed. so can a person eat meat without having a lack of respect for life, on some level? or is eating another species justified?

    i tend to think it is justifiable to eat other species, but i do think it does basically dull your respect for life, on some level.
    I think that view largely depends on the culture you come from. Many tribal cultures have rituals to show respect for the animal's spirit since they had to destroy its physical form for the people to survive. There are also many "rules" to ahere to as to which and how many of what animal to take. And in general, people who must hunt and get their food from the land in order to feed themselves, have an understanding that they could just as easily be the one being hunted and eaten.

    So, to say there is a decline in one's respect for life really does depend on where you're from and how you get your food. In Western culture, our slaughter houses that keep us from seeing the animal die--or from the animal dying by OUR hand--does probably lead us to not consider the creature that gave its life to feed us.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

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  6. #46
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    What about alien life? what if sentient, intelligent, emotional and delicious beings objectively on par with humans came to earth in peace, would you feel comfortable eating them?
    Under those conditions, I would group humans and the hypothetical aliens together. In that case, "sentient" life would be special and its individuals posses natural rights that don't apply to (other) animals. For all practical purposes, "sentient" life is currently limited to humans. And no, I don't find the fact that the average ape is more intelligent than infants or severely retarded adults to be a compelling reason to broaden (or narrow) the list.

    Edit: I would also like to add that if humanity is not special, then we would still have no more obligation to look out for the welfare of our prey than does a cat torturing a chipmunk with blissful indifference.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 09-15-2009 at 10:50 PM. Reason: forgot a word; self-evident

  7. #47
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Under those conditions, I would group humans and the hypothetical aliens together. In that case, "sentient" life would be special and its individuals posses natural rights that don't apply to (other) animals. For all practical purposes, "sentient" life is currently limited to humans. And no, I don't find the fact that the average ape is more intelligent than infants or severely retarded adults to be a compelling reason to broaden (or narrow) the list.
    So how do you define sentient?


    Edit: I would also like to add that if humanity is not special, then we would still have no more obligation to look out for the welfare of our prey than does a cat torturing a chipmunk with blissful indifference.
    I would say that humanity is special, in the sense that we can comprehend (to some extent) the suffering of other animals, we are not obliged to care about this suffering but it does seem hard to ignore for many.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  8. #48
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    What prevents you from cannibalism but does not prevent you from eating other intelligent animals?
    I think it's either a biological "code" or a fixed pattern. The specimen of a species do everything for the group's survival, and eating each other endangers the very existence of the community. Animals usually don't eat their congeners unless it is absolutely necessary - as always, there are exceptions to the rule. The prohibition of cannibalism may be "engraved" in us in defense of the collective; eating other humans is not rewarding, therefore we find the idea repulsive and disgusting. This, however, does not apply to other species. Tribal endo- and exocannibalism exists mostly because of spiritual purposes (like most human BS) or because of extreme conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    *They call him Flipper, Flipper, tastier than chicken*

  9. #49
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    So how do you define sentient?
    I suppose I would define it as the capacity (on the part of an average specimen of the species) to understand and communicate through the use of non-instinctual language (verbal, written, or sign) at approximately the same level as early humans. To the best of my knowledge, the most intelligent of the great apes can only be taught an extremely rudimentary amount of sign language consisting of a few dozen words.

  10. #50
    Playnerd Timeless's Avatar
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