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  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I think this is a difficult call. When a lot of other people's opinions are different than the posters may feel like they are being bulled personally rather than people dissagreeing with their opinion.
    That's true.

    I think the problem is simply that we cannot take this any further on the conceptual level, we need to get into the granular-level specific actions in order to determine what can be resolved and what might be just a misunderstanding, or poor social skills, or whatever else.

    The original actions have been so generalized to this point into some grand cause that it's impossible to tell what specific actions were actually being criticized and need to be resolved.

    There are some people who do make personal remarks rather than discuss topics - which I personally beleive is pretty poor form - but then some of them are young and possibly don't have the range of communication skills to be able to contribute in a more adult manner.
    True. There is a wide variety of ages in this forum, as well as social skill and life experience. Not everything is necessarily an effort to bully, some of it is simply lack of experience, and/or communicative weakness, and/or relational immaturity... none of which is bad, it just needs to be worked through together.

    If a person sees a debating of views as personal, then that really is their problem... but if it is a personal attack then that becomes bullying.... I'm pretty sure there are a fair few people who wont actualy recognise the difference.
    I guess. I'm wondering how that perception is currently in play.

    ... Toonia, thank you for your remarks, they are really good standard practice.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #52
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The original actions have been so generalized to this point into some grand cause that it's impossible to tell what specific actions were actually being criticized and need to be resolved.
    Victor thinks anyone who disagrees with him or his "cause," is a bully.
    Victor thinks anyone who moves his posts or threads to the graveyard, is a bully.

    It doesn't get any clearer than that.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    The type of communication associated with women can IMO add to conflicts as opposed to resolving them and that is because stereotypically women do two things, they;
    Often communicate subtly
    Use emotions when communcating

    This means that you can be in the wrong just by making someone feel bad and often this won't be verbalised and so you are further in the wrong for not knowing what you have done. To be sure, I'm not saying that all women do this but I am saying that this is the kind of problems associated with female social interaction. Women often tend to discuss problesm with each other hence a group is created through networks that have been set up and so then a group form of bullying can occur.

    Just commenting on the title really, but don't want to comment on the particualrs of this board or anything!! . But wanted to contribute as I was actually discussing some of this stuff with a friend of mine just recently!
    ... couldn't drag me away

    eljko Ranatovic: argus
    eljko Ranatovic: do you want heir's?
    WildHorses: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    eljko Ranatovic: to carry your genealogical code??

  4. #54
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I have been thinking that it would be good to come up with a plan for dealing with piling-on when it happens here. Part of the problem is that most of the invididual actions don't rise to the level of justifying sanction, based on our current guidelines. The problem is the aggregate, and that is nigh-on impossible to manage cleanly. It's similar to an elementary school classroom environment where one student becomes the class scapegoat- some of the harsher insults can be dealt with, but unless a teacher wants to be iron-fisted, it's difficult to deal with every instance of teasing. It's one of the reasons I am not an elementary school teacher, because I have no clue how to handle those sorts of dynamics. I never thought that I would be in a position to deal with this in adults. I am open to PRACTICAL ideas about how this community can deal with situations where it becomes comfortable within the group to needle a particular individual.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #55
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    You could make an example of the most egregious offenders. For example anyone who has a persistent pattern of following a particular member into threads to harass and troll off-topic, or brings the member up for ridicule in threads where s/he has not even posted.
    I have one in mind.
    The graveyard is suitable place for such posters to haunt.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  6. #56
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    ^ I have one in mind too.
    He's so proud of what he does, it's in his custom user title.

  7. #57
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. I did not assert that literal language is the remedy. To the contrary, I stated that his use of figurative language makes the presentation of his ideas "more colorful (or round)." The words are scattered when the discussion of the interesting idea Victor raises goes nowhere. This has less to do with figurative language than with different rules of engagement. Most of these threads quickly degenerate into accusations of victimization/illogic. It's not simply that Victor uses figurative language, but the manner of engagement is wanting.

    As for the bullying, it's not always clear who's bullying whom, or if the bullying is not a welcome tool for the victim.
    I thought style was a manner of engagement. Sorry, I misunderstood then.
    I am in the woods. Cos I have no idea what you are talking about.
    So it is not about figurative speech now, eh?
    Many people have raised the issue of figurative speech, blaming Victor. These people are in the plain wrong. This is what bullies do. They attack mercilessly the one who is different.

    I see nothing wrong in Victor's manner of engagement. I am blind, blind.
    Oh you worthy defenders of faith. Put me in the track again.

    Manner does not create engagement. Engagement creates a manner. It is called an art.
    Pure and simple. Music, painting, ballet, sculpture and .. writing.
    Yes, mylady. Writing, too. Cos journalism is an art form.

    Victor does not bully. Bullying is not a tool for the victim. A victim does not bully.
    You know why? It is because bullying is a groupie thing.
    The victim, you see, does not take orders.
    Difference is not ordered. Manner does not engage.

  8. #58
    Member slant's Avatar
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    Hmm, I do not think I have ever been a victim of group female bullying. I would say my personality makes it very undesirable for a female, or anyone in general to bother me because I will retaliate and do what it takes to defend myself and prevent further conflict. Bullying I had in gradeschool was entirely by males, and it was not physical, but mental. Females did not communicate with me and the female friends I had did not start conflict with me. I notice that with female groups, females who associate with the group are attacked- especially if a female attempts to serenade a male that the female groups feel is their territory. I would almost insist that a great majority of female group bullying, if not all, is territorial and associated with the opposite sex ( or the sex that the female group is sexually interested in).

  9. #59
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    I do not see that Jennifer or Ivy bullied anyone. When I talk of bullies I do not mean them. The bullies, as I have said before in this thread, are the people who disparage Victor for his figurative, journalistic style.

    That does not mean that females do not bully. Jennifer or Ivy don't, but my female teachers did. They enjoyed it, too.

    I understand someone was hurt because of a thing Victor said about astrology. He said the same thing about MBTI. Astrology is the old name of astronomy. It is a science about stars and such. I, for my part, believe the stars are there. Do they influence us? Everything influences everything in a closed system.
    So I do not agree with Victor in either instance. I believe MBTI has its uses, too.
    Am I hurt? No, why should I be. I see no reason to be hurt. Do I have self integrity and such things? I do not know. One way or the other, it does not matter.

    Does Victor think I am a bully, because I disagree with him? No, he does not.
    We abide each other. More than that, we are even friends.
    Learn of Victor and me. Abiding each other, it is not even hard.

    The graveyard may have not been the best solution, but it was not bullying either.
    Why? Because a bully does things to bully, not to solve a problem.

  10. #60
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's true.

    I think the problem is simply that we cannot take this any further on the conceptual level, we need to get into the granular-level specific actions in order to determine what can be resolved and what might be just a misunderstanding, or poor social skills, or whatever else.
    .
    I beleive there is numerous ways of working towards a solution....

    One (on the possitive hand) is to create a B list... A list of behaviours we collectively try to adoped to make it a better form for everyone (which feels less rule etc).....

    Be open to others ideas
    Be considerate that they have different life experiences
    Be aware that they may be significantly older or younger than you

    Stuff like that... with a some about be gentle with people who are getting lots of opposition to their ideas etc.... This approach is a big bit softer than setting rules etc

    A second way would be to create anti bullying rules... saying no personal attacks...

    I'm not at all sure if my thought on bulying = personal attack v's non bullying = on or more people dissagreeing about a thought.... People may not see it like that, and I might have odd views... so I think there is a need to have clarity of what the difference is.

    Both ways would require a clear process management system... Posters should be encouraged in the first instance to say - you are not Being supportive or what have you, or you are making me feel XYZ... But then also clear understanding of the escalation process....while keeping in mind that the mods aren't nessesarily fully time/can't be eveywhere at once...

    Another alternative that they do at schools sometime is having a committee of members who resolve such things... I think that would be difficult to do in a transient community

    Sorry that all sounds horribly processie... Do keep in mind I've not been here long so really only applying out side life...

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