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  1. #31
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    My post isn't an instance of blaming the victim. In my post all I did was note that in order to exist as a victim, a victim has to present some sort of obstacle for the bully. In some cases the victim has a particularly active role in maintaining his condition; in others, the victim plays a more passive role. Whatever the case, the victim always does have some measure of responsibility, even if it's merely by choosing to prolong his life. I wouldn't call a victim guilty, though, unless he chooses to turn his bullies into victims themselves. In that case he makes a choice that is seldom positive for anyone involved.

    As an aside, please do note that when I use the word "victim," I don't mean a victim of random violence. When I use that word I mean someone who has an ongoing history as someone's victim.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Twice now on this site I have been threatened with physical violence...
    Victor, could you please post links to those posts here so that everyone can see what you are referring to? That might be helpful, to give some context to what you're saying. Thanks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    Senior Member MonkeyGrass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    My post isn't an instance of blaming the victim. In my post all I did was note that in order to exist as a victim, a victim has to present some sort of obstacle for the bully. In some cases the victim has a particularly active role in maintaining his condition; in others, the victim plays a more passive role. Whatever the case, the victim always does have some measure of responsibility, even if it's merely by choosing to prolong his life. I wouldn't call a victim guilty, though, unless he chooses to turn his bullies into victims themselves. In that case he makes a choice that is seldom positive for anyone involved.

    As an aside, please do note that when I use the word "victim," I don't mean a victim of random violence. When I use that word I mean someone who has an ongoing history as someone's victim.
    Makes perfect sense. I think the word "bully" tends to be charged with memories of childhood and school for a lot of people (which is definitely the context of the book that Victor is referencing...good book, btw). In the case of children in school, they often don't have a way out-their parents say they must go to school, and so to school they go to live in the presence of the bully each day. As adults, we have more choices than that. We can remove ourselves. Good point.
    I think I think more than you think I think.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    To me its like those who practise astrology or MBTI have no intellectual integrity or self respect.

    I fail to see how anyone could view themselves as a "victim,"
    after claiming that anyone who practices MBTI has no intellectual integrity or self-respect.

    Those aren't the words of any kind of victim, whatsoever.
    In fact, they are the words of someone who is the opposite.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Unfortunately Nunki, a victim can't defeat group bullies by whipping them into submission. Removing oneself from bullies or allowing them to destroy you can be too great of a cost either to the psyche or to the physical body. As for aligning with the bullies, I am not sure if you meant trying to change the bullies opinion or to becoming allies or both. I did find that your suggestions were constructive, I am just trying to find out a more specific way to counter group bullying.

    In retrospect, I have seen two cases of group bullying. I, in general, only remember the first case initially, because I did not do all that I could do and that the bullying resulted in a girl becoming highly depressed and suicidal. The second case I argued against the prevailing attitude every time it was mentioned, and it did cut down the amount of time disparaging comments were said in front of me, but it didn't help her, Eventually she put herself away from the bullies reach by removing herself from the social group. Nonetheless this was at a heavy cost for her as she lost a part time job for it and her friends. I do use the word friends loosely, because are they really friends if they turn against you for dumping a guy they liked. Ending of the tangent. I am interested to know if there is a specific way to help a victim out of the situation, or more interestingly for a victim to help themselves. Hopefully Nunki you will return and have more suggestions.

    Now refreshing the page, I see more posts have been added, YAY!

    I am more talking of social bullying off the internet than on where escape is often harder.
    If this is mentioned in the book, I apologize if I am asking questions that are immediately answered in the book.
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  6. #36
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    I'm not even saying that Victor or anyone else should remove themselves. I've been in Victor's position a couple of times in my life, and I feel for him. All I'm saying is that bullying is a two-way street, and that if you're a willful victim of it with an easy way out, you have to take some of the responsibility. It can't be all their fault when you choose to pick a battle with them.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  7. #37
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    @Keps

    These things are so dependent on the particular circumstances that, unless I have specific situations, I have to get very broad when thinking about possible solutions. As far as trying to help a victim, the best thing you can do in most cases is to give them emotional support. I've been an outsider for most of my life, and the thing that means the most to me is empathy and support. As long as there is one person I care about and who cares about me, it's enough to carry me on.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  8. #38
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    It's okay, I was thinking that it really depended on the circumstances, but I was hoping someone would magically appear and tell me that I'm wrong and there is solution that works > 90% of the time for future cases. Still a chance that could happen though.
    Love wouldn't exist without loneliness to inspire it.

    Peach yogurt is made of love. And gnome kidneys. - Domino

    I can cope and will cope without polluting my lungs. - Saslou

  9. #39
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Group bullying is wrong.

    We all have a duty to oppose group bullying.

    And group bullying only succeeds if it is accepted by the group. And groups typically accept it by blaming the victim.

    And the reality here is that this group accepts group bullying.

    So I ask anyone with even half a heart and half a mind to join me in opposing group bullying in this group.

    This will be difficult for those unable to achieve any independence from the group.

    But it will become plain to them that in not opposing group bullying, they are dependent on the group.

    And the price to be paid for such dependence is to assent to group bullying.

    I must admit this is too high a price for me. What about you?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I fail to see how anyone could view themselves as a "victim,"
    after claiming that anyone who practices MBTI has no intellectual integrity or self-respect.
    It's true. In any University Psychology Department MBTI is considered non compos mentis and risible.

    And in any University Psychology Department MBTI is considered to have the same intellectual integrity as astrology, that is, none.

    And in any University Psychology Department those who practise astrology or MBTI are considered to lack self respect and compensate with self esteem.

    Self respect is something you give yourself while self esteem is bestowed upon you by the group for assenting to group bullying and blaming the victim.

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