User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 23

  1. #11
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,545

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    It may never explain the brain fully but we all know that it's possible to explain aspects of the brain in order to create a more accurate model of the mind. That's all I meant by attempting to explain.

    Most people would agree that even with the most complicated systems there is some form of determination going on, and for those who cite QM as a counter point. It's plausible that there's an even more fundamental rule set going on in the background that is fixed, course this is an assumption at this point.
    The weather is complex system but the brain is many orders of magnitude more complex than the weather.

    We do have models of the weather but it still remains unpredictable.

    It is the inherent nature of complexity that it remains unpredictable.

    For instance, we are unable to predict human behaviour so we have developed a system of morality that says how things ought to be, not how they are.

    The weather has no moral system but we are vastly more complex than the weather so instead of predictability we have morality.

  2. #12
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,674

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    and for those who cite QM as a counter point. It's plausible that there's an even more fundamental rule set going on in the background that is fixed, course this is an assumption at this point.
    Someone needs to read more Quantum Mechanics

    There's proof that, in the sense we use rules/laws, some behaviour of sub-atomic phenomena will always be obeying none. That's not to say that most systems aren't predictable to a large degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    first discover that free will might be an illusion.
    The thing with that is, the "free" part of free will is incoherent. It makes no sense as a term.

    Try describing what it is for a will to be "free". What's a scenario where a will has a choice, or where a will doesn't have a choice? How is a will anymore free when it is unpredictable, or any less free when it is predictable?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Someone needs to read more Quantum Mechanics

    There's proof that, in the sense we use rules/laws, some behaviour of sub-atomic phenomena will always be obeying none.
    Damn you and your physics degree.
    Perhaps I should stay away from surface based science.

    The thing with that is, the "free" part of free will is incoherent. It makes no sense as a term.

    Try describing what it is for a will to be "free". What's a scenario where a will has a choice, or where a will doesn't have a choice? How is a will anymore free when it is unpredictable, or any less free when it is predictable?
    Damn you and your philosophy. :steam:
    Alright it's true when you put it like that. It doesn't really make much sense.

    Hmm...
    Perhaps it'd be more accurate to say that it's the idea that fundamentally there isn't such thing as a will that comes with the acceptance of this sort of information. Do people usually describe particles as having will? That just sort of leads to the conclusion that there isn't really anything conscious, or that the self is just a trick of the mind. Course we'd most likely continue to live life as if it weren't true but doesn't this sort of thing open a whole can of worms. This is all pointless musing from a practical daily living point of view. ^^'

    Lots of people seem to have problems with reductionism, it's the whole reason that humanism/gestalt psychology came up right?

  4. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,674

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Do people usually describe particles as having will? That just sort of leads to the conclusion that there isn't really anything conscious, or that the self is just a trick of the mind.
    That's an interesting point. Maybe people feel the pain of losing "free" will, when they begin to think they are the same as particles? (I would describe particles as having a will)

    I don't get what's bad about being a bunch of particles. Seems as awesome as being some ethereal being. If we started to explain our ethereal nature, some people would find it depressing. If god exists, and we explain it, some people would probably get depressed.

    Probably lack of curiousity/mystery or something, caused by explanations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Lots of people seem to have problems with reductionism, it's the whole reason that humanism/gestalt psychology came up right?
    Very true. I just think people forget that what is actually occurring is merely a more detailed description of things humans have seen for thousands of years.

    Science, by its nature, describes patterns. In its perfect form, it tells you what occurs before, after and simultaneously with an event. Nothing more.

    So, in context, that stuff that happens in your mind, is happening simultaneously with this stuff that happens in your brain. Great. Now I'm off to practise some Wicca.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Someone needs to read more Quantum Mechanics

    There's proof that, in the sense we use rules/laws, some behaviour of sub-atomic phenomena will always be obeying none.

    How does one prove that something obeys no laws?
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  6. #16
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,674

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    How does one prove that something obeys no laws?
    Bell's theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Remembering how we use the term "laws". Laws are something we see and predict from our own point of view.

    As with anything, throw in the divine (outside the universe), and you get a lot of other possibilities.

    All you really need to do to show that the universe is not locally deterministic is:-
    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Classical Physics: Where all particles inact a force on all other particles. Humans are part of the entire universe at any given moment. In order to predict the universe, they need to predict themselves, as they are part of the universe. They in turn would be affected by the prediction they make, as it is part of themselves, so in order to predict themselves, in order to predict the universe, they would need to predict the prediction. Ad Infinitum. Perfect predictions are the product of guesswork.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    That's an interesting point. Maybe people feel the pain of losing "free" will, when they begin to think they are the same as particles? (I would describe particles as having a will)

    I don't get what's bad about being a bunch of particles. Seems as awesome as being some ethereal being. If we started to explain our ethereal nature, some people would find it depressing. If god exists, and we explain it, some people would probably get depressed.

    Probably lack of curiousity/mystery or something, caused by explanations.


    Flawed but it can't be that great to be the same as a rock. Unless of course your the sort of person who believes that you are one with nature. On the otherhand the idea of being similar to a cloud is pretty cool. The last part is probably true. It's the reason I'm not so fond of biology despite knowing psychology is mostly about it at the most indepth level.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    664

    Default

    One step closer from eradicating this "soul" junk from the public's psyche. Which is one step closer to people really living in the world they really live in.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  9. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    The thought of understanding the brain is very cool in my opinion, the scary part is when we use the knowledge to try and control or change it to what we "think" we want.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    664

    Default

    Fixed: I understand your Ad Infinitum remark. I don't know why, but it just didn't gel the first time I read it.

    What is, is. The rest, i.e., our language or conceptions, is just fabricated symbols expressing what is, but always inadequately. Ja?

    So we have these minds shooting off little zaps across a folded grid, and each zap represents a computation. Each computation is part of a larger and more complex process of computations capable of predicting and weighing possible outcomes based on memories and abstract tidbits and eventually causing a grand action such as the movement of a finger or an arm, which itself is part of the larger action of picking up the cup, which the being plans on emptying into his guts because he is thirsty. Can electricity be tracked and measured? Yes. Can chemicals be tracked and measured? Yes. If we created a model of a brain, that was identical to a human brain, molecule-for-molecule, it would work, provided it had the proper support and fuel, ie oxygen etc.

    We must only determing the thresholds that allow a zap to be shot to understand and predict human behavior at its most basic, hence neuroscience. Be careful not to twist obvious observations into things that appear more comfortable to you. Don't say "the ball may not come down" because you prefer to think of the ball as having "will," whatever that means. Sure, this analogy sounds silly because we're used to the effects of gravity and are not frightened of its laws. Everything is subject to laws, and understanding that the ball will come back down to earth after you throw it does not make it any more sad or defeating an event. Neither would it be with hair you cut off, and neither would it be for your body falling as you trip. Neither would understanding hinder or sully the pumping of your blood or the thoughts of your mind. Understanding is never a hindrance.

    Kai says, "It can't be that great to be the same as a rock." Well tell me Kai, is it great or is it not?

    Kai says, "Unless you're the sort of person who believes you are one with nature."
    But tell me Kai, where does nature end and you begin? Are you artificial? Artificiality does not exist in purity, it cannot, because artificiality is merely nature rearranging. It is bits of nature moving bits of nature into certain positions in space and then arbitrarily drawing a distinction, proclaiming "this object is now new. This object is artificial."

    Tell me Kai, when you are beyond your last breath, and your skin becomes soil, are you nature then? Are you the same as a rock then? Yes, but only when you stop breathing?

    By the way, what type are you, erm, if you please? And why have you chosen not to list it?
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] Sensors, how do you react to stereotypes?
    By labyrinthine in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 02-01-2010, 08:34 AM
  2. [NT] How do you react to unresolved conflict?
    By fidelia in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 06-20-2009, 04:22 PM
  3. [SJ] How do you react to unresolved conflict?
    By fidelia in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 06-20-2009, 01:07 AM
  4. [SP] How do you react to anger?
    By ColonelGadaafi in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-01-2009, 01:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO