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Men, Women, and Crying

sculpting

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I know quite a few women who resort to fake crying to avoid consequences or to get their own way. (I stopped counting at 6.) I've seen them do it so many times and then when they get their way the sun comes out again. Bleh.

It's usually directed at their partners/families/friends but one of these women had some trouble getting some permissions for her business and told her business partner not to worry as she would go to the local authority and cry to make things happen.

My god. What is wrong with these people? I guess in my mind overwhelming emotions-sad, happy, confused or whatever it is that precipitates the crying- are a sign to step away and give someone else space or support. It's kind of the last sign. So to use that to your advantage seems very-well, manipulative and sort of evil. I did work with one lady who did this. An esfj. I have her job now, if thats anything for how useful it was.

I guess I very rarely ever cry. Once a year until very recently. Maybe three times in the last last six months.
 
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violaine

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Yeah, they disgust me. It's unscrupulous and manipulative. Unfortunately it works on their intimates. One of them had her business fines halved too because she cried. I have let a few of them have it before when they turned on the tears but there is one I just have to walk away from. She would go to Defcon 1 level of dramatics if I ever called her out.
 

Totenkindly

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Well, sure, but I think that yelling/shouting is kind of on a par with crying.

I do much better with crying than yelling, personally. Yelling is veering into "aggression" territory and makes my skin stand on end. Crying is frustration not necessarily directed at anyone in particular.

In any case, it seems pretty typical for men to yell if they're frustrated and for women to cry. (Heck, I cry when I'm happy sometimes now... and hard... and then I usually start laughing while I'm still crying because I know how absurd it looks to outsiders. It just happens.) As long as you know the person well enough to trust them, then it becomes about learning to read the signal for what it is rather than trying to squelch it. It's just giving a signal of one's internal state, it's not necessarily a criticism of the other person in the conversation.

Anyway, women who use tears to consciously manipulate are as bad as men who run around yelling and smashing things to consciously manipulate -- it's the same motivation directing the very different behaviors.

... I guess I'm not saying much different than what Ivy and Jeno and others have been saying.
 

Eileen

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Hey Eileen - where'd the rest of your old thread go to?

I felt the need to delete it. I may undelete it, but right now it causes more anxiety than it soothes.
 

Laurie

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Actually, I hadn't thought about it until this discussion started. I naturally cry in situations but have felt the need to stifle my crying because people can think you are trying to manipulate them if you are crying.

Aren't I being manipulated to change my feelings because someone else might feel guilty that I'm crying?
 

Totenkindly

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Actually, I hadn't thought about it until this discussion started. I naturally cry in situations but have felt the need to stifle my crying because people can think you are trying to manipulate them if you are crying.

Aren't I being manipulated to change my feelings because someone else might feel guilty that I'm crying?

heh. :)

what a tangled web.
It's too bad we all just can't be honest about our responses [in a mature way] and let everyone take responsibility for their own reactions.
 

Jae Rae

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I know quite a few women who resort to fake crying to avoid consequences or to get their own way. (I stopped counting at 6.) I've seen them do it so many times and then when they get their way the sun comes out again. Bleh.

It's usually directed at their partners/families/friends but one of these women had some trouble getting some permissions for her business and told her business partner not to worry as she would go to the local authority and cry to make things happen.

This is the result of bad parenting - ie, women who pulled this as children to get what they wanted. Women who do this probably do other manipulative things, and men should be onto them early.

I'm with Ivy on this - I cry for joy and/or relief, as well as sadness, hurt and frustration. I remember one particular incident when my son had been bullied, so I picked him up after school for a couple of weeks. A good (male) friend teased me about it and tears sprang to my eyes - I couldn't help it and I wasn't manipulating. His words just plain hurt.

Some men who can't stand crying have been shamed about it themselves. My boss of many years told me when I started working for him that he couldn't stand to see women cry. I'm not a big crier, but I made sure it didn't happen in front of him. When I heard they found Polly Klaas' body, I went into the back room.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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People who interpret crying as manipulation are more likely to be the ones who would use it that way. I have known people of both genders who use it that way, and then assume that is how everyone uses it. This is not always true obviously because people are complex and have various experiences, but I do tend to take a step back when someone uses that interpretation falsely because the best measure of motives comes from inside ourselves. People tell you a lot about themselves by what they project into others.

The fact of the matter is that people cry for various reasons and in response to various levels of hurt and pain. The rational person will respond to that information for what it is and not insist on interpreting it based on personal fears about what it means.
 

JivinJeffJones

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The fact of the matter is that people cry for various reasons and in response to various levels of hurt and pain. The rational person will respond to that information for what it is and not insist on interpreting it based on personal fears about what it means.

So "the rational person" assumes crying is always genuine? Is that what you're saying here?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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So "the rational person" assumes crying is always genuine? Is that what you're saying here?
They acknowledge that it can be a reaction to various levels of pain and based on a variety of motives. It isn't one thing that best matches an interpretation based on personal fears. If it isn't always a big deal then always interpreting it as a big deal does not match reality. It is reasonable to learn new interpretations that fit with new situations.

I was also trying to think how to add to my post that a person's past experiences can also shape their first reactions to crying. If they are conditioned by someone else to see it as typically manipulation, or as an intense crisis, then that is based on experience and not their own motives. Misinterpretations are there for a reason, and it makes sense to figure out why the misinterpretation is occurring. Edit: If other people actively alter their behaviors to reinforce the misinterpretation, then that is heading down a path to more confusion. If I stop crying or run away anytime I am sad because someone I'm with interprets it as crisis, then I am reinforcing that interpretation and making it more true in the current situation.
 

JivinJeffJones

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They acknowledge that it can be a reaction to various levels of pain and based on a variety of motives. It isn't one thing that best matches an interpretation based on personal fears. If it isn't always a big deal then always interpreting it as a big deal does not match reality. It is reasonable to learn new interpretations that fit with new situations.

I was also trying to think how to add to my post that a person's past experiences can also shape their first reactions to crying. If they are conditioned by someone else to see it as typically manipulation, or as an intense crisis, then that is based on experience and not their own motives. Misinterpretations are there for a reason, and it makes sense to figure out why the misinterpretation is occurring.

I agree to a point, but at the same time you don't seem to be leaving a lot of room for the possibility that the crying is being used as a manipulative tool.
 
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violaine

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This is the result of bad parenting - ie, women who pulled this as children to get what they wanted. Women who do this probably do other manipulative things, and men should be onto them early.

Absolutely, they are spoiled brats by and large. Unfortunately, the men in their lives are rather undone by the tactic so it continues to work. I have no idea why but I suppose the crying causes their partners to panic in some way and the objective is just to stop the crying at all costs.

Definitely at a cost to their relationships imo, but these women don't seem to care about that.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I agree to a point, but at the same time you don't seem to be leaving a lot of room for the possibility that the crying is being used as a manipulative tool.
I guess that comes down to what is being communicated alongside the tears. What else is the person requesting and would they be apt to obtain it with reason and not tears? If there is an implicit request, is it within the realm of reason?

What you are referring to might be a mild version of emotional blackmail. One of the prime examples of that I heard from a lady who was a cancer survivor and always sweet, but she recounted a story to her friends by email that was hard to forget. She really wanted a gold harp and ordered one while her husband was at work. He came home, was upset, and said, "that's too expensive". Her response, "I had cancer". In principle this shows that her request would not have been won with reason and so the appeal to pity was a tactic.
 

ceecee

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I've never seen crying as a release, although I think that would be nice at times. It would be very efficient to get everything out that way and be done with it. Is that how it works? Anyway there are movies that make me cry and real sadness sometimes makes me cry but the normal crying places - funerals, hospitals, birth related events - no. My take on that is that someone has to hold it together and usually that's been myself so I learned early on that the less emotional you get in emotional situations the better. You can fall apart later on if need be but for me, that's about 50% of the time.

Crying as manipulation? Oh I know a lot of women who do this. Men manipulating with tears? I've honestly never seen this before. I think my husband has cried twice in all the time I have known him. Once was when his dad died and once was a really scary hospital situation with one of our kids but, like me, he never cried until it was well over with. I felt helpless as this is a man who never cries. It almost made me feel physical pain. Neither time was manipulation of course.
 

JivinJeffJones

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I guess that comes down to what is being communicated alongside the tears. What else is the person requesting and would they be apt to obtain it with reason and not tears? If there is an implicit request, is it within the realm of reason?

What you are referring to might be a mild version of emotional blackmail. One of the prime examples of that I heard from a lady who was a cancer survivor and always sweet, but she recounted a story to her friends by email that was hard to forget. She really wanted a gold harp and ordered one while her husband was at work. He came home, was upset, and said, "that's too expensive". Her response, "I had cancer". In principle this shows that her request would not have been won with reason and so the appeal to pity was a tactic.

I keep reading on this thread about the supposed projection of people who see the possibility of emotional manipulation in tears. But I think there's far more projection here from people who cry themselves and are indignant at the thought their tears could be seen as manipulative. The example you give is extreme. What about the example of women who cry to get out of speeding tickets? I've met a number of those. They are happy to admit it. And Sanveane has also given examples. Runvardh has referred (albeit vaguely) to having had experience with manipulative-criers. As has Alcea Rosea. And EJCC. And Berberella.
 

Usehername

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I keep reading on this thread about the supposed projection of people who see the possibility of emotional manipulation in tears. But I think there's far more projection here from people who cry themselves and are indignant at the thought their tears could be seen as manipulative. The example you give is extreme. What about the example of women who cry to get out of speeding tickets? I've met a number of those. They are happy to admit it. And Sanveane has also given examples. Runvardh has referred (albeit vaguely) to having had experience with manipulative-criers. As has Alcea Rosea. And EJCC. And Berberella.

Women who manipulate-cry are primarily manipulators and will manipulate in all sorts of circumstances. So if you know a woman who has never made you suspicious that she's manipulative in general, then it's likely she's just overwhelmed and needs to cry, or she at least has earned the benefit of you withholding judgment. If she's been manipulative before in other non-crying circumstances, she's earned the right to have you be suspicious of her feelings.
 

Fidelia

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What Usehername said!

Do you think there's also a T vs F divide on this? As in, Ts might themselves feel the need to cry less frequently, so view with suspicion those who do? They also might feel more justified in determining what is or isn't "legitimate" circumstances in which to cry. They also may feel less comfortable with the vulnerable feelings it evokes within themselves and so wish it to stop immediately?

Just a theory. I'm not sure if it sticks or not.

You are quite right JJJ to feel resentment towards women who cry about speeding tickets etc and then boast about it later. However, I think it is a given that we all consider that sort of behaviour unacceptable.

There are some women that are quite dramatic and cry much more than average. This has more to do with maturity level, but the feelings are still heartfelt. It's just that they have not learned when it is or isn't appropriate to cry and they allow themselves to give in to tears more easily when those feelings crop up, where others might make more attempts to hold them back. (I'm not referring to people like Ivy or Jennifer who have stated they cry for a variety of reasons and who are measured and reasonable from what I've observed).
 

Ivy

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Women who manipulate-cry are primarily manipulators and will manipulate in all sorts of circumstances. So if you know a woman who has never made you suspicious that she's manipulative in general, then it's likely she's just overwhelmed and needs to cry, or she at least has earned the benefit of you withholding judgment. If she's been manipulative before in other non-crying circumstances, she's earned the right to have you be suspicious of her feelings.

Exactly. Just, exactly. I have nothing to add to this. Useless post over!
 
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violaine

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What Usehername said!

Do you think there's also a T vs F divide on this? As in, Ts might themselves feel the need to cry less frequently, so view with suspicion those who do? They also might feel more justified in determining what is or isn't "legitimate" circumstances in which to cry. They also may feel less comfortable with the vulnerable feelings it evokes within themselves and so wish it to stop immediately?

Just a theory. I'm not sure if it sticks or not.

You are quite right JJJ to feel resentment towards women who cry about speeding tickets etc and then boast about it later. However, I think it is a given that we all consider that sort of behaviour unacceptable.

There are some women that are quite dramatic and cry much more than average. This has more to do with maturity level, but the feelings are still heartfelt. It's just that they have not learned when it is or isn't appropriate to cry and they allow themselves to give in to tears more easily when those feelings crop up, where others might make more attempts to hold them back. (I'm not referring to people like Ivy or Jennifer who have stated they cry for a variety of reasons and who are measured and reasonable from what I've observed).

Hmm, I don't think it's necessarily a T/F thing. I most definitely don't like crying in front of people and I view women (and men) who use tears to manipulate with disdain. I guess I feel I can tell the difference easily though so I'm not automatically suspicious of tears. I've had a few boyfriends who have tried that with me and it takes me all my time to be patient with them on those occasions.

I have read of other INFJs who really don't like to cry either. I am extremely private in that sense, so much so that I can't ever really cry the way I want to if I'm upset if anyone is around. I don't cry often either.
 

Fidelia

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I think all of the INFJs in this thread so far have expressed that they truly dislike crying in front of others. I know I do. I also view manipulators with disdain.

However, tears are not always manipulative and it is important to consider the other possibilities of why people cry instead of immediately jumping to that conclusion.
 
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