Men, Women, and Crying

[Fidelia]

I was surprised to find out how many men feel that tears are used as a form of manipulation. While there may be some women that do this, I think the vast majority of them do not. Like some of the above posts have said, I often wish that when I am trying to discuss something important that is also very difficult, I would do anything to keep from crying. Tears never come unless it's out of extreme frustration after superhuman efforts to make something work and exhausting every possible option to no avail (this could happen in a work setting, but not in front of anyone if I can help it) or when I am talking to someone and the emotion is extremely deep and tear slip out against my will. There may be a sum total of three people in my life that I would ever consider crying in front of and those occasions would be very rare.

If anything, I wish I were much less transparent in those situations. I understand that tears invoke inner bad guy accusations for the other person and also put me at the disadvantage of looking irrational and overly emotional. It certainly isn't to my advantage.

 

[MacGuffin]

I cry easily. Some people do, and it's totally natural.

Some people are more sensitive than others.

Being suspicious of people crying is...crazy.

So when are your tears a serious matter or just momentary phase?

 

[Usehername]

My upset tears are almost always in extreme grief or when someone has really crossed the line and hurt me emotionally. (Exception: overtired and hormonal, but unless you were really interpersonally close to me you wouldn't see these.) I don't really get this notion of manipulation through tears. I've always just presumed that other women were just more sensitive than me.

(Which is not to say that women don't manipulate through tears, but that I expected those same women who manipulated through tears to manipulate through a variety of opportunities.)

 

[JivinJeffJones]

If anything, I wish I were much less transparent in those situations. I understand that tears invoke inner bad guy accusations for the other person and also put me at the disadvantage of looking irrational and overly emotional. It certainly isn't to my advantage.

I don't doubt this but then, you aren't choosing to cry. It's happening against your will for no purpose. Those who choose to fake-cry aren't disadvantaged by it because they use it only when they know it could aid their cause. Like in front of a cop who has pulled them over for speeding. Or to a dad who has grounded them for acting up, but will probably cave with a little bit of pressure.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Being suspicious of people crying is...crazy.

Its not crazy, merely a failure to to keep in mind (broad) differences between people, kind of like an ENFP judging an INTJs responses by their own tendencies. Obviously, some men are more prone to crying than others, but virtually all men are socialized since early childhood not to express anger, frustration, hurt, etc. through tearshed. Some of it is different hormones after puberty, but much (perhaps most) of it is habituated response. Also, crying is a means of expressing emotional reactions; its not necessarily indicative of greater sensitivity by itself.

 

[runvardh]

I don't doubt this but then, you aren't choosing to cry. It's happening against your will for no purpose. Those who choose to fake-cry aren't disadvantaged by it because they use it only when they know it could aid their cause. Like in front of a cop who has pulled them over for speeding. Or to a dad who has grounded them for acting up, but will probably cave with a little bit of pressure.

Or a son who is too nice for his own good. Some lessons are a bitch... lol

 

[Thalassa]

Its not crazy, merely a failure to to keep in mind (broad) differences between people, kind of like an ENFP judging an INTJs responses by their own tendencies. Obviously, some men are more prone to crying than others, but virtually all men are socialized since early childhood not to express anger, frustration, hurt, etc. through tearshed. Some of it is different hormones after puberty, but much (perhaps most) of it is habituated response. Also, crying is a means of expressing emotional reactions; its not necessarily indicative of greater sensitivity by itself.

I usually cry because my feelings are hurt or I feel helpless. In my mind, anyone who judges my feelings of hurt or helplessness with suspicion seems just a little bit like a jerk.

Ocasionally I cry because of some other feeling. BUT. It's pretty obvious when I'm truly, truly upset. It's pretty clear when it's not just "a habituated response." :rolli:


I think if you really know someone you can tell the difference.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't doubt this but then, you aren't choosing to cry. It's happening against your will for no purpose. Those who choose to fake-cry aren't disadvantaged by it because they use it only when they know it could aid their cause. Like in front of a cop who has pulled them over for speeding. Or to a dad who has grounded them for acting up, but will probably cave with a little bit of pressure.

My dad never caved with a little bit of pressure.

Crying never happens against your will for "no purpose." It actually clears toxins from the system. Are you sure you're an NF?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

My dad never caved with a little bit of pressure.

Crying never happens against your will for "no purpose." It actually clears toxins from the system. Are you sure you're an NF?

Good grief, I'm sorry you had a relationship with an abusive guy who believed your legitimate tears were acts of manipulation. And I'm sorry that you are evidently projecting this onto me and this conversation. Really sorry. When you are done with that perhaps you could read what I've actually typed and realize that nowhere have I insinuated that your tears weren't legit? I am not talking about you.

 

[Thalassa]

Good grief, I'm sorry you had a relationship with an abusive guy who believed your legitimate tears were acts of manipulation. And I'm sorry that you are evidently projecting this onto me and this conversation. Really sorry. When you are done with that perhaps you could read what I've actually typed and realize that nowhere have I insinuated that your tears weren't legit? I am not talking about you.

Dude, I'm not even upset. I'm totally calm. I don't think this warranted a "good grief."

I just find a prolonged conversation about women using tears to manipulate people a little annoying, in general.

No hard feelings, man. Carry on.

 

[Eileen]

Moved these posts from the boobs thread to their own thread!

 

[Fidelia]

Can most men tell the difference between crocodile tears and the involuntary kind in your opinion, JJJ? Is it the unsureness of whether they are being manipulated that bothers them most, or the helpless/accused feelings that it triggers that create their reaction?

 

[Fidelia]

Hey Eileen - where'd the rest of your old thread go to?

 

[EJCC]

I just find a prolonged conversation about women using tears to manipulate people a little annoying, in general.

Agreed. I understand that the people who pointed that out DON'T think that all/most women are like this. But nonetheless! I'd say that the VAST minority of women are like this. I know a few women (who, by the way, are SPs - no offense to COOL SPs) who cry to get attention... but those women annoy the crap out of me. And I would HATE to be shoved into a group with them, i.e. presumed to have cried for attention-getting purposes. Again, I'm NOT assuming that anyone is doing that. But just the IDEA of someone doing that makes me mad.

Crying never happens against your will for "no purpose." It actually clears toxins from the system.

I need to memorize these two sentences and repeat them to myself, as a mantra, after I cry about something. I SO often forget that, after all! 99% of the times I cry, it's the result of a buildup of negative emotions over the course of a few weeks to a month, and every single time I cry, I hate that I cried. I get bewildered - "Why did I cry??" And when I find out, I don't feel like the reason is good enough. (I hold myself to similar standards as men do, with regard to crying... only I can't control how those emotions get let out. Effing estrogen. )

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Can most men tell the difference between crocodile tears and the involuntary kind in your opinion, JJJ?

I don't think most guys can reliably read whether the tears are involuntary or intentionally manipulative, since we often have a hazy idea of where the "tears line" is and it seems to change not only from woman to woman but also from day to day. We mostly have to rely on the known integrity of the woman crying. If her integrity isn't known or is mistrusted then it's a bit of a crapshoot.

Is it the unsureness of whether they are being manipulated that bothers them most, or the helpless/accused feelings that it triggers that create their reaction?

Firstly I'm not entirely sure which reaction you're referring to. Distress? Discomfort? Mistrust? Irritation? The reaction and cause thereof would vary according to the context. I'm not sure but I think crying is designed to elicit an emotional, protective response (as with babies and mothers). It can trigger that helpless feeling you mention which can cause frustration and anger, especially if the man judges the tears unwarranted. The frustration and anger could also be caused by guilt or a feeling that the discussion has been prematurely (and unfairly) terminated by the advent of the tears. Whatever the reaction is, it will probably be amplified by the instinctual (?) distress the crying invokes.

Add to that the suspicion that the tears may be fake and you have quite a volatile cocktail. For me, at least. Some guys may not be bothered by it at all.

 

[OrangeAppled]

How many women can produce convincing tears on command? Come on....even good actors struggle to do that. :rolli:
If there are women who cry to manipulate, then they are unusual. The issue is male paranoia here, not female manipulation.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

How many women can produce convincing tears on command? Come on....even good actors struggle to do that. :rolli:
If there are women who cry to manipulate, then they are unusual. The issue is male paranoia here, not female manipulation.

It doesn't have to be that realistic to be convincing in the heat of the moment. Actual tears aren't even required. Usually the fake-crying manipulators have been doing so since earliest childhood, so they don't have a problem with it. And I think there are more than you realize, probably in part because such manipulators almost never target other women.

 

[alcea rosea]

It doesn't have to be that realistic to be convincing in the heat of the moment. Actual tears aren't even required. Usually the fake-crying manipulators have been doing so since earliest childhood, so they don't have a problem with it. And I think there are more than you realize, probably in part because such manipulators almost never target other women.

Yes, there are those too who use crying for manipulating.

I have had experience with one of them. I've been watching her manipulative tiers and I've wondered how her reaction seems to be all wrong and too strong in some situations and why didn't I get emotional response to her sorrow (because I do get it when the sorrow is real). It took me many years to understand her tears are fake in these situations. She uses crying to manipulate. She has found out that men close to her are extremely vulnerable around a crying woman and thus do whatever she likes when she starts crying. She uses everything for control and manipulates people as good as she can. I have seen her with real sorrow for few times. Those occasions she doesn't actually cry. I have felt her sorrow and thus felt sorry for her in those few occasions.

Manipulating with tears isn't necessarilly something that totally mentally healthy person would do. Or would it? Or is it just winning, gaining power, controlling the best that you can with the "weapons" you have. In this case the weapon is crying.

 

[OrangeAppled]

It doesn't have to be that realistic to be convincing in the heat of the moment. Actual tears aren't even required. Usually the fake-crying manipulators have been doing so since earliest childhood, so they don't have a problem with it. And I think there are more than you realize, probably in part because such manipulators almost never target other women.

How is that crying then?

I think there's a lot less of these women than you seem to think there are. It seems you've had some bad experience and are now lumping all women together. That's a dangerous thing to do.

 

[EJCC]

It doesn't have to be that realistic to be convincing in the heat of the moment. Actual tears aren't even required. Usually the fake-crying manipulators have been doing so since earliest childhood, so they don't have a problem with it. And I think there are more than you realize, probably in part because such manipulators almost never target other women.

I have been manipulated by fake-crying women TWICE. And I fell for it BOTH TIMES! So it makes me upset to think that there are more of these women, because those women make me MAD AS HELL. Plus, me being Te-dom, I feel the need for some evidence here. What percentage of the women who have cried in front of you, do you think, were doing it intentionally in order to manipulate you? And how do you know that it WAS manipulation? (Forgive me if you explained already, and I just missed those posts.)

EDIT: I second OrangeAppled's post.