Men, Women, and Crying

[Eileen]

Sorry that this is taken out of context a little. Here is an abbreviated but more relevant version of the post that sparked this convo:

He's spiraling into shame and depression over this no matter what I do or say -- I feel like I've expressed reasonable boundaries, albeit emotionally (I try to express things rationally, but I often cry while I do it).

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I try to express things rationally, but I often cry while I do it

Ouch. If I were him I'd feel terrible too.

 

[Eileen]

Ouch. If I were him I'd feel terrible too.

I know, but I can't help it. It is frustrating for me that the fact that I cry ever stops a conversation. He raises his voice and shouts sometimes, and I cry sometimes. I don't really see that those are different things--it's just emotional expression. I can continue the conversation if he lets me.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I know, but I can't help it. It is frustrating for me that the fact that I cry ever stops a conversation. He raises his voice and shouts sometimes, and I cry sometimes. I don't really see that those are different things--it's just emotional expression. I can continue the conversation if he lets me.

I accept that you see it that way, but I don't think many guys would agree. I think most guys consider crying either emotional manipulation or a sign that we've crossed the line in a pretty serious way.

 

[weminuche]

sign that we've crossed the line in a pretty serious way.

Well...he has in this case. See previous analogies of women going on about how they love thick hair or tall men (when you arent/havent) either....and gawking at them constantly.

I wouldn't cry, but it's obviously something very serious when it gets to the level she is describing.

 

[Eileen]

I accept that you see it that way, but I don't think many guys would agree. I think most guys consider crying either emotional manipulation or a sign that we've crossed the line in a pretty serious way.

He does have that reaction--that he's crossed the line. And he has crossed the line in this case, but it's not the end of the world.

Also, sometimes I just cry. I don't know what to do about the problem of him wigging out when that happens. I guess that I could go somewhere else and cry, but that doesn't seem like it'd improve the situation if he still knows that I'm crying. The other option is not having the conversations at all, because I can freeze out my crying by not talking about things.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Well...he has in this case. See previous analogies of women going on about how they love thick hair or tall men (when you arent/havent) either....and gawking at them constantly.

I wasn't saying he hasn't crossed the line, I was just saying that most men wouldn't consider raising your voice on a par with crying when it comes to emotional expression. Raising your voice is something you do with your mates when you're having a disagreement over who was the greatest left-handed batsman of all time. Crying is not.

But if crying is something that is part and parcel of your communication Eileen then there isn't much you can do about it. Just make sure he understands that for you crying isn't as big a deal as he might think it.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Well...he has in this case. See previous analogies of women going on about how they love thick hair or tall men (when you arent/havent) either....and gawking at them constantly.

I wasn't saying he hasn't crossed the line, I was just saying that most men wouldn't consider raising your voice on a par with crying when it comes to emotional expression. Raising your voice is something you do with your mates when you're having a disagreement over who was the greatest left-handed batsman of all time. Crying is not.

But if crying is something that is part and parcel of your communication Eileen then there isn't much you can do about it. Just make sure he understands that for you crying isn't as big a deal as he might think it.

 

[Eileen]

I was just saying that most men wouldn't consider raising your voice on a par with crying when it comes to emotional expression.

Well, sure, but I think that yelling/shouting is kind of on a par with crying. Raising one's voice in and of itself is not.

 

[weminuche]

I wasn't saying he hasn't crossed the line, I was just saying that most men wouldn't consider raising your voice on a par with crying when it comes to emotional expression. Raising your voice is something you do with your mates when you're having a disagreement over who was the greatest left-handed batsman of all time. Crying is not.

I hear ya. Personally I'd rather deal with crying than rage/screaming though. For me...crying at least says to me that they care. I have a hard time dealing with anger and screaming though....so maybe it's just me.

 

[Eileen]

It IS hard not to feel that my crying isn't the problem--but that's because it's the thing that I could try to control to whatever effect (and I'd like to control whatever I can). But I know that even if he and I figure out how to deal with emotional reactions, we've still got something to work through besides. At the moment, I feel like it's worth trying to work through.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

It IS hard not to feel that my crying isn't the problem--but that's because it's the thing that I could try to control to whatever effect (and I'd like to control whatever I can).

I didn't say your crying was the problem. I just want to make sure that's clear.

 

[Thalassa]

Well, sure, but I think that yelling/shouting is kind of on a par with crying. Raising one's voice in and of itself is not.

I agree.

I also think it's seriously fucked up that his earlier post claimed that men view crying as emotional manipulation. That's disturbing. I cry out of pain or frustration or sometimes even joy, not to manipulate anyone.

 

[lowtech redneck]

I'm not saying that women who manipulate through crying don't exist. I just don't think it's healthy to assume that it's the norm.

Let me give you the (non-abusive) male perspective; crying automatically makes us feel bad about our actions and turns us into the "bad guy," regardless of the validity of our position in an argument. In effect, if not necessarily by design, this gives crying women an advantage as far as arguments/disagreements with men are concerned, and thereby edges the compromises inherent in inter-personal relationships strongly in the women's favor. We assume you know this, and choose to cry anyway, and therefore perceive at least some degree of manipulation in what we regard as an unfair, inappropriate, and seriously uncool tactic. Obviously, this assumption doesn't apply in situations where we perceive justification for extreme emotion (which would make repressing the urge to cry difficult).

 

[Ivy]

"Choose to cry" is where your argument went south for me. I don't choose to cry; I often wish I could keep it from happening.

 

[statuesquechica]

"Choose to cry" is where your argument went south for me. I don't choose to cry; I often wish I could keep it from happening.

Same here. Many times crying is an emotional outlet because the words are so heavy, the pain is so palpable, not just mine, but the person I am talking to. To cry is not a sign that you are the "bad guy," but it is interesting food for thought.

I can also say I have never cried in front of someone to manipulate them...it is extremely painful to share that depth of feeling with someone and it is therefore done on very rare occasions. Perhaps someone sharing their tears with you is a sign of deep trust and shouldn't be viewed as a manipulative act....

 

[iwakar]

^^Lots of agreement.

I LOATHE crying in front of others. LOATHE. On occasion it happens. Try as I might, I cannot always quell my emotional swells. I cannot fathom crying intentionally to manipulate someone. It's appalling.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

"Choose to cry" is where your argument went south for me. I don't choose to cry; I often wish I could keep it from happening.

I'm sure you don't, Ivy, but you're awesome. Surely you'll concede there are unscrupulous lasses out there with considerably less class and awesomeness than you? I've heard of more than a few girls turning on the tears when pulled over by the cops to get out of a speeding ticket, for instance. They're quite proud of it.


YouTube - jackie fake crying.

 

[lowtech redneck]

"Choose to cry" is where your argument went south for me. I don't choose to cry; I often wish I could keep it from happening.

Remember, I'm talking about different perspectives; if you did not feel an uncontrollable urge to cry except under the most extreme of emotional states (and sometimes not even then), can you understand why you might be somewhat suspicious of someone crying, given the consequences that crying has in relationship dynamics?

 

[Thalassa]

Remember, I'm talking about different perspectives; if you did not feel an uncontrollable urge to cry except under the most extreme of emotional states (and sometimes not even then), can you understand why you might be somewhat suspicious of someone crying, given the consequences that crying has in relationship dynamics?

I cry easily. Some people do, and it's totally natural.

Some people are more sensitive than others.

Being suspicious of people crying is...crazy.