asperger thread

[armstrongvk12]

Keirsey's description of the entire NT temperament in Please Understand Me II also seems to be strongly linked to autistic spectrum disorders.

He correlates the SP temperament with ADHD. This is probably why ADHD has become so common in children, because of an overrepresentation of the SP temperament.

Autism, on the other hand, is still quite rare, much like the NT temperament.

I don't know what statistical evidence Keirsey used, but I teach and have taught dozens of these students every year for the last 21 years. I have more INTPs with ADHD. Autism is actually not rare. In 2007, the Center for Disease Control reported 1 out 150 diagnosed with autism.

 

[wildcat]

I only want to use pills insofar as making me feel less anxious (if they do that trick, and sometimes they do). I can't say I care how my outward behavior comes across toward other people.

I understand the anxiety is the outcome of a social conflict.
The social conflict is an asperger thing?

Inevitably, any social conflict is created by the majority.

Democracy is justice.
Something for the majority.

 

[wildcat]

I don't know what statistical evidence Keirsey used, but I teach and have taught dozens of these students every year for the last 21 years. I have more INTPs with ADHD. Autism is actually not rare. In 2007, the Center for Disease Control reported 1 out 150 diagnosed with autism.

If you evaluate a measure the first question should be:
Who employs the measure?
The end is the means.

Statistics has got the logic inside the measure.
Is the logic of a thing inside the measure?

 

[gothamcitygirl]

Hi, everyone - I hope you don't mind if I intrude? I've been lurking for a few months, but this thread got me to finally become a member so I could post.

My son is ADD and I almost certainly am, too. I believe he's an INTP (although sometimes he tests INFP) and he's always struggled with inattention to everything but what he's interested in. If he's interested in something (like science) you CANNOT tear him away from it. He has trouble in school because even though he tests as gifted (top 1% in science nationally, top 3% overall) the schools only see that he forgets his homework, loses things, etc. and they seem to take it personally. His grades suffer badly because of it.

Why do they insist on teaching to his weaknesses, like organization, instead of his strengths? Someone once said madness is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, but the teachers never change their strategies so that they can effectively teach him. (And they say HE needs drugs??)

Anyway, forgive my little rambling rant. I really wanted to say to you, Wildcat, that your description of life as ADD is exactly right. And I'm really sorry that you had such a hard time with school, too. I'm watching my son go through it and I know how awful it can be.

 

[miss fortune]

My cousin is a high functioning autistic- he appears to be an INTJ from all of my years of knowing him, but I couldn't swear on it. Unfortunatly, his parents don't work much with him and because of that he has quite a bit of trouble with some social functions- he's the only other member of my family who DOESN'T immediatly go in for a hug when meeting someone new!

The whole Se/ADHD thing might have some point I suppose- my ESTP cousin and I have both been diagnosed with ADHD, but never medicated. Both of us are dyslexic as well. The doctors were afraid to give me medicine- apparently they thought it would swing me from my normal state, which they described as mildly hypomanic, to a depressed state

I'm happy with that- I can't sleep anyways

 

[The Ü™]

If he's autistic, then should he be painting like an autist?

 

[substitute]

The shrink may not understand it, but I do. There I recognize my childhood.
Asperger and ENTP and popular.
I think you are quite right about the Ne.
It remains to be seen if she will remain Ne dominant after puberty.

I find it very odd that an ISTP should be interested in religion at all. The ISTP is not counter culture, therefore I take it his religion is the usual brand of Christianity.
It is even more odd that he insists that everybody follows his lead. This does not sound like an ISTP description at all. They are usually very set back.
On the other hand they do conform to the peer group. And more than that, the peer group is everything for them. I am still puzzled that the peer group should be a religious group. It has to be of long standing.

Actually, his religion was Jehovah's Witnesses, far from the norm. He got into it mainly as a crutch after my mom left him years ago. Those guys turned up on his doorstep when he was the most vulnerable (as they tend to do) and hooked him in with all the things he wanted to hear: no it's not your fault your wife left you, it's because Satan is ruling this world. Come with us, follow our rules, and everything will be better. He was isolated and alone and down and they gave him a 'family' when my mom took his away.

He didn't insist that everyone follow it, just us kids. His thinking was that as our father, it's his job to do what's best for us, and since he totally believed that following that religion would lead to us all being together on a paradise earth one day, it was really important to him that we followed it. He couldn't understand our points of view, and his peers in the congregation of course only reinforced the view that it was important to 'bring us round' and that we'd thank him for it in the end. Of course they had no idea how extreme the means were that he was using on us, as I'm sure even they would've condemned that.

I'm very sure he was ISTP though. I - he spent looooong periods completely alone and took a job as a truck driver, saying the thing he liked most about it was being able to be alone on the road for long periods. He was also the stereotypical handyman, obsessed with engines and vehicles of various kinds, and a highly skilled crafstman. He was, in most matters other than his religion (which was only in the last 20 years of his life), pretty laid back and laissez-faire.

But I've known some other ISTP's to be surprisingly rigid about some of their opinions, and quite judgemental of people who don't share them. My step-dad for example is also ISTP and he's as laid back as they come, but if you start him off on the Arabs or his football team, he can easily rival any SJ for rigidity.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

My son is ADD and I almost certainly am, too. I believe he's an INTP (although sometimes he tests INFP) and he's always struggled with inattention to everything but what he's interested in.

By that definition, I have ADD.

 

[gothamcitygirl]

I know my description was kind of vague, Magic; there's obviously more to his symptoms than what I described.

By the way, I read your posts earlier in the thread about the use of medication and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have refused to medicate him despite quite a bit of pressure from his teachers and the archdiocese psychologist (he's in Catholic school). IMNSHO, we medicate kids waaay too readily and too often without regard to long-term effects. Besides, why would I medicate a smart, creative, kind person merely because he is not typical?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Well, I think the important thing is, when I am interested in something, I can pursue it with extreme expedience.

My point being; that a lot of people that could be very useful are instead regarded as defective by a society that is too incompetent to know how to utilize them.

 

[gothamcitygirl]

Agreed.

 

[redacted]

Ni Fe Ti?
There is no such type.

ADHD seems to have correlation with Se..
ADD with Ne?

INFJ --> Ni Fe Ti Se

IMO, it's kinda up in the air what your last 6 functions are. for me it goes Ni, Fe, Ti, blah, blah, blah, blah, Se.

and i also think that my ADD has much to do with the strength and frequency of use of my Ti. once my Ti is satisfied with a subject, why pay any more attention? if i'm engaged, i'm quite engaged (hyperfocusing), but if not, i can't really focus at all.

before i came to Cal (and here too to a lesser extent), i was always in the top few students in all my classes...not in terms of grades, but in terms of comprehension and speed. so it was extremely difficult for me to do tasks (busywork) that seemed easy for everyone else. (they were easy for me too, i just had to push myself insanely hard to complete them, since they were pointless.)

so yes, i agree that there's a correlation between ADD and Ne. but i also think there's a correlation between ADD and Ti.

 

[redacted]

Poriferan is quite right. In fact, most psychiatric disorders are over-diagnosed in the United States. I once recall reading somewhere that 60% of New York City inhabitants are currently using psychiatric medication of some variation. That is quite disturbing.

overdiagnosed? maybe.

or maybe our society is getting more and more specialized, which means "success" becomes harder ---> more depression, etc.

actually i agree with overdiagnosed...for children. because in that case, it's the parents that do the damage. the child has no choice.

but if an adult wants to take drugs, that should be their choice.

 

[MerkW]

but i also think there's a correlation between ADD and Ti.

There is nothing remotely ADD about Ti. Ti is all about intense focus.

 

[redacted]

There is nothing remotely ADD about Ti. Ti is all about intense focus.

did you read what i wrote?

once Ti gets something, it gets it. so hearing it repeated over and over in different ways for the next 88/90 minutes is quite difficult...

plus, haven't you ever heard of hyperfocusing?

edit: so assume Ti already gets the specific topic of the class you're in. well, it'll just start on some other topic. i used to sit in math class working out interesting calculations, not just ax^2+bx+c=0 bullshit. or i'd write computer programs on my calculator to do the busywork for me. i'd be off on my own world (ADD) doing what I found interesting.

 

[MerkW]

plus, haven't you ever heard of hyperfocusing?

Of course I have. But one doesn't have to be ADD to engage in hyperfocus.

 

[redacted]

Of course I have. But one doesn't have to be ADD to engage in hyperfocus.

all i'm saying is that i DO have ADD (based on the DSM-IV definition). and i don't use Ne or Se like at all. so it's either Ni, Fe, or Ti. i guess i could make an argument about it being Ni, but Ti makes more sense to me.

 

[MerkW]

all i'm saying is that i DO have ADD (based on the DSM-IV definition). and i don't use Ne or Se like at all. so it's either Ni, Fe, or Ti. i guess i could make an argument about it being Ni, but Ti makes more sense to me.

Your argument appears somewhat logically superfluous.

From the DSM-IV:

1. Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.
2. Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.
3. Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
4. Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).
5. Often has trouble organizing activities.
6. Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).
7. Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).
8. Is often easily distracted.
9. Is often forgetful in daily activities.

Name one thing on that list that is distinctly Ti.

 

[Carebear]

Hm... I always thought most aspies operated a lot by Ti, but this thread has made me think. I still see Ti a lot in aspies, but that might just be because it's easier to study a person's rational functions than it is to study the perceiving functions.

I now have two possible hypotheses to consider:
1: Aspies rely mostly on a judging function and don't use a perceiving functon as much.
2: Aspies rely too much on Ni.

 

[The Ü™]

Hm... I always thought most aspies operated a lot by Ti, but this thread has made me think. I still see Ti a lot in aspies, but that might just be because it's easier to study a person's rational functions than it is to study the perceiving functions.

I now have two possible hypotheses to consider:
1: Aspies rely mostly on a judging function and don't use a perceiving functon as much.
2: Aspies rely too much on Ni.

I was thinking more either Ni or Ti.