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  1. #11
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Could you talk more about this, or provide some more examples (references to books / web articles etc.) if you have any at hand?

    It is definitely possible I am seeing this through a western mindset and did not even realize it... go ahead, expand my mind.
    Yeah, I saw that film as well and I was struck by the difficulties those guys faced once they got to America. They were stressed out about bills, school, work, transportation, they gained weight, and were still actively taking care of their family and friends in Sudan. I think Westerners tend to glorify and romanticize the non-Western places as bastions of higher existence or something. I mean look that the new Wes Anderson movie (the Darjeeling Limited) and needing to go to India to experience spiritual awakening. Countless films and books outline people going to Tibet or Kenya (and evidently Alaska) as a catalyst to a transcendental experience. Where do the people in these countries go when they want to be spiritually awakened? What do they think about their countries and ways of life being portrayed in such a manner?

    As far as Maslow's Hierarchy is concerned I basically agree with it. You can't really fight in a revolution if you're hungry. You don't know if you're being scammed if you can't read. The basics must be taken care of first before you can move onto bigger things. We have whole industries dedicated to this in the West because most (not all which people tend to forget) of our citizens have the time and income to be to be higher up on this pyramid although I think a lot of people aren't necessarily looking for self-actualization. I think they've lost their purpose and meaning in life and are desperate to find something to fulfill them.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah, I saw that film as well and I was struck by the difficulties those guys faced once they got to America. They were stressed out about bills, school, work, transportation, they gained weight, and were still actively taking care of their family and friends in Sudan. I think Westerners tend to glorify and romanticize the non-Western places as bastions of higher existence or something. I mean look that the new Wes Anderson movie (the Darjeeling Limited) and needing to go to India to experience spiritual awakening. Countless films and books outline people going to Tibet or Kenya (and evidently Alaska) as a catalyst to a transcendental experience. Where do the people in these countries go when they want to be spiritually awakened? What do they think about their countries and ways of life being portrayed in such a manner?
    I usually feel a lot better when I go back to visit India. Somehow, I think my sense-of-belonging needs are met better there (despite the fact that I can barely understand the language now).

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    As far as Maslow's Hierarchy is concerned I basically agree with it. You can't really fight in a revolution if you're hungry. You don't know if you're being scammed if you can't read. The basics must be taken care of first before you can move onto bigger things. We have whole industries dedicated to this in the West because most (not all which people tend to forget) of our citizens have the time and income to be to be higher up on this pyramid although I think a lot of people aren't necessarily looking for self-actualization. I think they've lost their purpose and meaning in life and are desperate to find something to fulfill them.
    Also, the wording was:
    The higher needs in this hierarchy only come into focus once all the lower needs in the pyramid are satisfied.
    Note: it says the needs higher needs only come into focus once (not are not met till) the lower ones are satisfied.

    So they could already be met, but that is not what is focused on. It could be in a tribal village, that they go from basic food-needs directly to self-actualization because the needs in-between are already met.

    I am wondering how accurate that is.

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  3. #13
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    Maslow was an NF, his hierarchy probably is more relevant to NFs.

  4. #14
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Pyramidal transcendence? Marlow must have been a Goa'uld, too.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Pyramidal transcendence? Marlow must have been a Goa'uld, too.
    I always find it funny when people not familiar with eastern religions, and things based on them, poke fun at these by comparing them to fiction they know.

    Is it possible the work of fiction got the idea from the eastern religion?

    Or perhaps they are independently striving towards the same truth, which means the similarity is a good thing.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #16
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    I wouldn't even call it a theory. I bet it has been proven to be true as many times as it has proven to be false.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizm View Post
    I wouldn't even call it a theory. I bet it has been proven to be true as many times as it has proven to be false.
    I had similar bets.

    I am not sure how one would measure when something "comes into focus"?

    At a societal level, in the long term, I think this is still mainly true.

    As a society, I think the U.S. is at the "sense-of-belonging" stage (perhaps preparing to move back to the "esteem" stage).

    Meh. Sometimes I binge on speculation. I feel sick afterwards.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #18
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizm View Post
    I wouldn't even call it a theory. I bet it has been proven to be true as many times as it has proven to be false.
    I'm curious how people are concluding this. It basically states that we need;

    Security;

    To survive as individuals for species;
    To secure our individual security;
    To secure our social needs;
    To secure our ego;

    Once security has been established, we move onto improvement. Tangible improvements, tools... then art, the less useful forms. And after that, comes civilisation, if you will.

    I do see how this can be somewhat an issue with stuff like cognitive vs artistic - I don't remember that being seperate... but in any case, most of it to be pretty true. Everyone here is taking their previous needs met. There is also something of a scale - once you start starving you can't focus on anything else. The biological need to eat is so strong that it utterly prevents any higher forms from manifesting. It's similar for each step up. Security needs to come before any form of group relationship can happen - they tend to work together. The same reason we need to find a social network before our ego really emerges - we have nothing to show when we have no peers.

    Having said all that, there is a blurry line around what is meant by "met", which I believe is defined as it no longer being the sole focus of the organism. That is to say that "needing food" isn't about worrying where your next meal will come from but the literal need for food right now.

  9. #19
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo
    Note: it says the needs higher needs only come into focus once (not are not met till) the lower ones are satisfied.

    So they could already be met, but that is not what is focused on. It could be in a tribal village, that they go from basic food-needs directly to self-actualization because the needs in-between are already met.

    I am wondering how accurate that is.
    I hadn't thought about it in those terms. I think Maslow's hierarchy normally suggests to people that they should achieve each one successively from the bottom up. I do not agree with that, but I can agree with what you say. They may have their needs met, but not even realize it. It's not that the needs are met in a particular order, but simply that awareness of what one lacks comes into focus in a particular order.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Could you talk more about this, or provide some more examples (references to books / web articles etc.) if you have any at hand?

    It is definitely possible I am seeing this through a western mindset and did not even realize it... go ahead, expand my mind.
    What I am thinking of in particular is that in order for a person to have their love, esteem, self-actualization, etc... needs met they first have to give up survival and safety needs. Let me see if I can give a couple of examples. One comes from Tolstoy's Confession, in chapter thirteen he says:
    "I renounced the life of our class and recongnized that this is not life but only the semblance of life, that the conditions of luxury under which we live make it impossible for us to understand life, and that in order to understand life I must understand not the life of those of us who are parasites but the life of the simple working people, those who create life and give it meaning."
    ...
    "Man's task in life is to save his soul. In order to save our souls, we must live according to the ways of God, and in order to live according to the ways of God, we must renounce the sensual pleasures of life; we must labor, suffer and be kind and humble."
    Tolstoy found meaning in life from living with the Russian peasants. The needs higher on Maslow's hierarchy: love, esteem, self-actualization, etc... were met by giving up many of the physical things that were ensuring his safety and security needs.

    Also the Bible talks about giving up what you have to gain something greater. Consider this quote:
    "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in the present age (homes, borthers, sisters, mothers, children and fields-and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life."
    -Mark 10:29-30
    I use this quote mostly because it is clear that you are not simply gaining something in the next life, but in the current life as well. I think there are better quotes though that illustrate the idea that you must give up physical safety/luxury/survival type things in order to gain something greater. That greater something is in this life, not simply the next one. That greater something is along the lines of love, esteem, etc..., i.e. the type of things that come from forgiveness and fellowship.

    Unfortunately I do not have a good quote from Joseph Campbell handy, but I'll very roughly paraphrase that the Hero's Journey basically talks about the same things. The hero must start out by leaving behind what is familiar to him, the safety of home and the like, in order to face his trials and ultimately gain a boon. These stories are often metaphors of a person's coming of age, so they represent giving up the safety of home in order to gain esteem, a wife, knowledge of oneself, etc....

    In all of these cases though the idea is that there is something to be gained in leaving behind survival and security needs, and that something is generally related to a person's love, esteem, self-actualization, etc... needs.
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  10. #20
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    One more complexity, are needs are not successively met at every point in time. Our various fulfillments shift as we move through time, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be strictly successive, but overlapping. Someone who has achieved self-actualization isn't going to immediately forget who they are if they go hungry for a week, but during that week the search for food may be more meaningful than gaining recognition or something else higher on the pyramid.
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