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  1. #31
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I'm looking for a system that does what it claims.
    MBTI fails miserably at what it claims.
    I'm not going to attempt to change your mind about this, but I totally disagree.

    I find MBTI to be a very good system, and I find it very helpful.
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  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Yeah, that's my understanding too. The MBTI itself does not ask questions to determine function order, it asks questions to determine dichotomy preferences. When you assume a set function order based on those preferences, you're making a big leap without any real basis.
    Yep, I agree.

    Quite honestly, I'm willing to admit that when I use function theory, I'm really just using it as a post-hoc explanation for a set of vague ideas I'm testing out about a situation or a person (some of which are my own, some of which come from others). If function theory works at all, I think it's because most of us are projecting our own hunches and perception of that situation and several similar situations onto the system, and giving ourselves permission to trust and investigate vague ideas that normally wouldn't hold up to scrutiny, or even be expressible in normal language terms. Basically, it allows us to partially externalize and express what would normally be a completely internal awareness.

    Function theory is the perfect thing to use for this kind of projection, because it's a logically balanced whole, following precise rules, describing almost nothing (yet still precise enough to give an impression), that can be sliced in several ways, allowing us plenty of room to take a couple of points that have some vague truth, and weave our own picture around them. This is especially helpful for NTs you manage to convince of it, who often can't be persuaded to trust their (accurate) hunches over logic. This gives them the set of "almost good enough" rationalizations they need to trust their instincts. I've honestly seen it transform their lives for the better by allowing them to bypass logic without being aware of it, more than they would normally let themselves.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Yeah, that's my understanding too. The MBTI itself does not ask questions to determine function order, it asks questions to determine dichotomy preferences. When you assume a set function order based on those preferences, you're making a big leap without any real basis.
    That's exactly why MBTI's reliability has come under fire for decades.
    What you wrote in bold print is in fact, what MBTI claims.
    Two Jungian analysts-Singer and Loomis-set out to test MBTI's claim,
    of having assumed function orders.

    In one of their studies they found:

    Summing across all 8 Dominant Type Modes, we discovered:
    the MBTI successfully predicted individuals’ Auxiliary Type Modes in less than 23% of the cases.

    Further, for remaining cases,
    the MBTI prediction rate deteriorated to 18.6% for Tertiary
    processes and 9.1% for Inferior processes.


    Singer and Loomis have done many tests on MBTI,
    all of which demonstrated--to varying degrees-- that MBTI is not reliable.

    Jeff, you are correct MBTI doesn't ask questions to test your functions.
    Your 4-letter type code directly correlates with an assumed function order,
    which MBTI claims you have.

  4. #34
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That's exactly why MBTI's reliability has come under fire for decades.
    What you wrote in bold print is in fact, what MBTI claims.
    Two Jungian analysts-Singer and Loomis-set out to test MBTI's claim,
    of having assumed function orders.

    In one of their studies they found:

    Summing across all 8 Dominant Type Modes, we discovered:
    the MBTI successfully predicted individuals’ Auxiliary Type Modes in less than 23% of the cases.

    Further, for remaining cases,
    the MBTI prediction rate deteriorated to 18.6% for Tertiary
    processes and 9.1% for Inferior processes.


    Singer and Loomis have done many tests on MBTI,
    all of which demonstrated--to varying degrees-- that MBTI is not reliable.

    Jeff, you are correct MBTI doesn't ask questions to test your functions.
    Your 4-letter type code directly correlates with an assumed function order,
    which MBTI claims you have.
    I what is interesting is that the same kind of results have been obtained with Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).

    I think there is a trend here.

    And that is that is when New Age claims are reality tested, reality fails to match their claims.

    But reality is no bar to faith. So many hundreds of millions have been following the New Age since the beginning of the 20th Century.

    The New Age plainly meets a deep rooted need. It may be because Christianity had been in retreat in the West from the middle of the 19th Century.

    Or it may be that mathematics and science offer no consolation to the masses.

    And of course the marriage of the New Age and business has assured its success.

    And interestingly this is very much like the earlier success of the marriage of Protestantism and business.

    So perhaps the New Age is a secular or modern form of Protestantism.

    But whatever, this site is proof of its popularity.

  5. #35
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Many of us who were involved in the creation of this site share the skepticism about typology. I know that probably seems hypocritical, but I have always thought of this as a place for people with an INTEREST in typology, not only for people who buy it wholesale.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #36
    heart on fire
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    I definately hate to hear of MBTI being used to pigeonhole people at jobs or school. I think it should remain a voluntary, personal tool.

  7. #37
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I definately hate to hear of MBTI being used to pigeonhole people at jobs or school. I think it should remain a voluntary, personal tool.
    I agree. I pretty much only use it as a vocabulary for certain kinds of traits, and for soft discussion of mushy concepts. I really think taking it very seriously only elevates false dichotomies to the level of science. Like "I'm 33% intuitive!" Really? 33%? Is there a blood test for that?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #38
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I definately hate to hear of MBTI being used to pigeonhole people at jobs or school. I think it should remain a voluntary, personal tool.

    Over the years, I have heard/read hundreds of stories of people being discriminated against, because of it.
    I'm referring to it being used in a corporate setting.
    There were people who claimed they didn't get hired because of their test result.
    Worse yet, were the people who told of the "type cliques" at their company.
    Certain tasks were delegated to those with a certain "type."

    Did it ever occur to those fools the type result wasn't valid?
    The recklessness is astounding.

  9. #39
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Many of us who were involved in the creation of this site share the skepticism about typology. I know that probably seems hypocritical, but I have always thought of this as a place for people with an INTEREST in typology, not only for people who buy it wholesale.
    This resonates with me as well. I don't see it as hypocritical to continually question a system that a person finds interesting and useful. I think it's healthy. It's what I understand to be critical thinking.

    My impression is that there is a little more to it than pure confirmation bias because it has constructed a few legitimate poles, but that stereotypes and preconceived prejudices play a strong role in making MBTI appear consistent and "true". It is just as interesting to learn about people through the way they interact with MBTI. I think I've learned more online in that way than through the categories and definitions within MBTI.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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