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  1. #21
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    All I see that quote as actually saying is "understand what typing is, and what it's not". It is a way to describe trends and potentially gain insights into individuals' psychology. It's not a way to classify humans.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    All I see that quote as actually saying is "understand what typing is, and what it's not". It is a way to describe trends and potentially gain insights into individuals' psychology. It's not a way to classify humans.
    Yet, damned if we are not in the midst of a forum,
    which predominantly body-slams people using human classification.

    When I was a kid immersed in the classification of rocks and minerals,
    and studying geology, I don't think I conducted rants like:

    "You fucking quartz crystals all suck!"
    "Fossils really piss me off!"

    It's pathetic that when we turn a classification system into one for humans,
    it suddenly resembles nothing more than people in glass houses throwing stones.

  3. #23
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    People are so afraid of being seen as a zealot, that they feel they have to play down their enthusiasm for typology.

    Then, as a result of so many people doing that, anyone who is openly enthusiastic about it seems like a zealot by comparison.
    I totally agree. It almost seems like some people go though a cycle:

    Enthused about typology - Wanting to share newfound knowledge - tired of the concept - "I'M TOO COOL FOR TYPOLOGY, YOU FOOLS NEED TO TOSS OFF THE SHACKLES OF YOUR MIND AND BE ENLIGHTENED LIKE ME, YEAAAARRRRH."
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  4. #24
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Fuck, I just use it to find out more about myself. I know there are infinite variations between people but the descriptions of each type seem to fit very well.

    The further development of both type and temperament have had amazing results. I plan on developing it even further, if possible.
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  5. #25
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    When I was a kid immersed in the classification of rocks and minerals, and studying geology, I don't think I conducted rants like: "You fucking quartz crystals all suck!"
    The problem is that quartz is not conscious and we are.

    And worse, we are conscious of each other. So our consciousness is recursive. And being recursive our consciousness is inherently unpredictable.

    So psychological typing is an attempt to predict the unpredictable.

    And this reflects the human condition - pathetically we try and try to predict the unpredictable.

    We are thrown onto this Earth without our permission. And equally, we are taken from this beautiful Earth without our permission. And we try to find rhyme and reason in this. So we have created ten thousand religions and cults to tell us why and where and how. And they tell us ten thousand different whys, and ten thousand different wheres, and ten thousand different hows.

    Yet in this vale of tears, tossed by the storm, we cling to the nearest piece of wreckage.

    And we hope, we hope and we hope it will save us.

    And along with hope we have faith, but our saving grace is charity.

  6. #26
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    That's pretty poetic. Have you considered being a writer? Or do you currently write for a living?

    Because you totally could.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    It isnt a perfect system. It isnt all encompassing. It's a start. Some of the pieces work really well and some could use tweaking.

    The stereotypes do get old.

    Say each type can live in four states-for an enfp:
    early development: NeFi
    middle devleopment: NeFiTe
    Tert overdev:NeTeFi
    Shadow: NiFeTi

    so already you are at 16 times 4=64 boxes. However really people are moving between those states in a continuum, no matter what state they may be in most of the time.

    Not to mention those who develop functions to supplement what work or home life they have that are outside of the "normal" order.

    Or people who have functions that dont seem to fit cleanly in the above boxed order.

    The neatest discoveries in any system are the parts where it is inconsistant and doesn't make any sense. That means it is wrong and you need to take another look and remold until the model fits the data. Data isnt wrong, the model just needs modification.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post

    The neatest discoveries in any system are the parts where it is inconsistant and doesn't make any sense. That means it is wrong and you need to take another look and remold until the model fits the data. Data isnt wrong, the model just needs modification.
    Exactly.

    The problem is, with the current model the data is actually being ignored.

    Case in point:

    Look at the following results from 4 alleged INTPs.
    You will notice a similar pattern in the results.

    (Bear in mind, there are two versions of the cognitive processes test available, so even that can make results fairly inconsistent.)


    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
    oooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
    oooooooooooooooooooooooo Te
    oooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
    ooooooooooooo Se
    ooooooooooooo Fi
    oooooooooo Si
    oo Fe


    oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
    oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
    ooooooooooooooooooo Te
    ooooooooooooooooo Si
    ooooooooooooo Fi
    oooooooo Se
    ooooooo Fe

    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
    ooooooooooooooooooo Se
    oooooooooooo Te
    ooooooo Si
    oooo Fe
    oooo Fi

    oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooo Fi
    ooooooooooooooooooooo Te
    ooooooooooooooooooo Si
    ooooooooooooo Se
    oooooooooo Fe


    What stands out most, is what I see not only in INTP results,
    but anyone's results.
    That's the ability to score high on both Ne and Ni.
    If you notice, there are some who score well on Te and Ti.

    What people keep ignoring is, MBTI profiles were created based upon an exact function order.
    This is not rocket science people.

    This is why MBTI failed miserably when some Jungian analysts tested MBTI's claims.

    Monster, you and I have been down this road together.
    We know the system is flawed.
    The bottom line is, many function orders do not match.
    And when that happens, the person is not that type.
    It really is that simple.

    That means using MBTI criteria, none of those 4 alleged INTPs are actually INTPs.
    They are some other type, yet to be named.

    So if someone has a beginning order like this:

    Ne
    Ti
    Ni
    Te

    They are not INTP or even ENTP, no matter what that test result says.
    MBTI does not define type by only the first two functions.
    MBTI type is based on an exact order of functions.
    (Which is why the system is flawed.)

    "Close to INTP" doesn't make one INTP.
    If people want to live by the MBTI sword,
    they better be willing to die by it.

    " Hey, I'm a little INTP-ish."

    There is no such thing as a little bit INTP, or "a little bit pregnant."

    I'm not looking for a perfect system,
    I'm looking for a system that does what it claims.
    MBTI fails miserably at what it claims.

    This isn't a problem with typology,
    it's a problem with MBTI.

    People need to get their facts straight.

  9. #29
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    .

    This isn't a problem with typology,
    it's a problem with MBTI.

    People need to get their facts straight.
    Well, that model would never work. Almost no one uses the functions in the exact order they're listed in.

    I always thought MBTI was more about the dichotomies, and functions were just added on to half-heartedly reconcile it with Jungian theory.

    In Jungian terms, I'd say I'm definitely an Introverted Intuitive type, because that's my strongest function. I don't really feel all that comfortable with any of the others, though I use them.

    It's too bad I can't just stop there and say I'm an Introverted Intuitive. Because deep down, I get the feeling that I probably don't really care about logic, justice, or ethics nearly as much as the ideas, visions, and daydreams I come up with... but I'll use either one to justify and explain them depending on my mood.

  10. #30
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I always thought MBTI was more about the dichotomies, and functions were just added on to half-heartedly reconcile it with Jungian theory.
    Yeah, that's my understanding too. The MBTI itself does not ask questions to determine function order, it asks questions to determine dichotomy preferences. When you assume a set function order based on those preferences, you're making a big leap without any real basis.
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