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  1. #11
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    ahhahahahaa, shall i give my entp friend an hug next time? ahahahahaa
    they'd probably die of surprise. I know I would if my ENTJ's hugged me. Mind you, they'd be just as surprised if I hugged them. Or anyone, come to that.

    In any case, I'm "complicated" too in certain matters, usually F-related.
    yeah, totally. What's wrong with being complicated? Do we all have to be an open book? Some people like a bit of mystery, they like having something to figure out - I know I sure do.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    they'd probably die of surprise. I know I would if my ENTJ's hugged me. Mind you, they'd be just as surprised if I hugged them. Me no touchy-touchy. Me got issues.... lol
    You sound complicated.

    Some people function very simply because they focus all their energies on simple, shallow things. Sometimes people will declare themselves complicated when they glimpse deeper inside and find they are baffled by who they are. I agree that every single person is complicated to a degree that they cannot be fully comprehended - at least in terms of the nuance and meaning of every experience. But it doesn't make sense to assume that everyone is equally complicated. Some people do have more things to reconcile, more layers to address, etc.

    "I'm complicated" as a declaration to place the responsibility on others for adapting to personal idiosyncracies is a lot different from acknowledging personal complexity by sensing a responsibility to become more self aware.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  3. #13
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post

    "I'm complicated" as a declaration to place the responsibility on others for adapting to personal idiosyncracies is a lot different from acknowledging personal complexity by sensing a responsibility to become more self aware.
    Quite. And damn you for quoting me before I edited! lol
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #14
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Also, I have to say regarding this:
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I consider myself transparent person, which means I don't try to hide or obscure the mechanics of who I am.
    ...that you should consider yourself lucky that you're able to feel that way, and try not to judge people if they don't feel they have the luxury of being that way. Some of us have spent a lifetime being punished for who we are, and learned that hiding and obscuring the mechanics of who we are is the only way to survive. For people like me and like Jennifer, perhaps, making ourselves 'transparent' means a heck of a lot of overcoming very ingrained, very real fears based on a lifetime of wretched experience.
    This leads to another thing I don't understand.

    I grew up in a very average family, and experienced the typical growing pains of my teenage years. This used to happen more often when I was in high school and only occasionally now. I was made to or felt guilty for having such a bland childhood. For example, I'd casually complain about my father and I'd have "you're lucky you have a father!" slung back at me. Or I'd say something about not having to share a room with a sibling, or playing in my backyard, or things like that. It got to the point that I had to be careful to not say anything about my family circumstances because people would think I was bragging or something. I grew up in an area where there are mostly single mothers with many lower-income people, so I understand why these comments were made.

    So, for those who didn't experience abuse, neglect, or any other traumatic events, would that make them less "complex" because they didn't have to learn survival mechanisms to cope with these events? Is this really what complexity is?

    This reminds me of the quote:
    Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This leads to another thing I don't understand.

    I grew up in a very average family, and experienced the typical growing pains of my teenage years. This used to happen more often when I was in high school and only occasionally now. I was made to or felt guilty for having such a bland childhood. For example, I'd casually complain about my father and I'd have "you're lucky you have a father!" slung back at me.
    Um, I'm not sure... I think you've gone off on one there... I can't see where I've said anything that was to be taken as saying there was anything WRONG with being the way you are, or with being 'transparent', or that you should feel guilty about being able to be so. I meant just what I said - that you should feel grateful for it and simply take care not to judge others too harshly who don't feel able to. You've totally read something into my words that wasn't there, implied judgement and/or sarcasm where none existed. I'm happy for you that you're the way you are, and probably a teeny bit jealous too, but I certainly don't hold it against you and I'm the last person to do the whole "I suffered and so everyone else should, and anyone who hasn't isn't valid as a person" routine. Hell no.

    I find it genuinely very bizarre and curious that you use a phrase as strong as "slung back" about this sort of thing. Are you sure it's not actually that you yourself feel guilty about something, but because you know it's irrational perhaps you're angry at yourself for feeling that guilt, so you're judging yourself but attributing the judgement to others?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #16
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I'm not upset! What you said just lead me to another train of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Um, I'm not sure... I think you've gone off on one there... I can't see where I've said anything that was to be taken as saying there was anything WRONG with being the way you are, or with being 'transparent', or that you should feel guilty about being able to be so. I meant just what I said - that you should feel grateful for it and simply take care not to judge others too harshly who don't feel able to. You've totally read something into my words that wasn't there, implied judgement and/or sarcasm where none existed. I'm happy for you that you're the way you are, and probably a teeny bit jealous too, but I certainly don't hold it against you and I'm the last person to do the whole "I suffered and so everyone else should, and anyone who hasn't isn't valid as a person" routine. Hell no.

    I find it genuinely very bizarre and curious that you use a phrase as strong as "slung back" about this sort of thing. Are you sure it's not actually that you yourself feel guilty about something, but because you know it's irrational perhaps you're angry at yourself for feeling that guilt, so you're judging yourself but attributing the judgement to others?
    Hmmm...like I said, where I'm from this is a touchy topic. I don't doubt that I feel guilty about my upbringing even when I talk about it now. Most people were raised by their mothers or grandmothers. Fathers were around, but a significant portion of my classmates at the times had limited contact. It happened to me more than once, my father would pick up us from school and people would see that and make comments about this or he'd answer the phone and people would ask who that was (so nosy!), stuff like that.

    Within the context of the thread, I made that statement because some posters mentioned traumatic childhood events that can lead to more complicated personalities or behaviors. Maybe that wasn't a good contextual example.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 09-29-2007 at 06:07 PM. Reason: merged posts
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm not upset! What you said just lead me to another train of thought.
    OK, then in that case, maybe yeah, maybe that is what complexity is in the sense you seem to be using it. I suppose yeah, if you have to learn pretty early on, and your life hammers it home to you repeatedly, that just being yourself isn't an option (I'm a transsexual in case you didn't know), then you're forced to develop a 'face' that you show to the world simply for acceptance, as your true self is repeatedly proven to be 'unacceptable' and 'invalid'. Over theyears you learn to develop many 'layers' to hide yourself under, for protection, while you select/create layers to deal with the current situation, since dealing with it authentically, transparently and as yourself isn't an option. You still have to live with yourself though, so you create yet more layers and bury yourself yet deeper, in order to square all the layers with each other whilst still maintaining a sense of your own identity and integrity. I guess that's how one becomes 'complex'.

    I have found that most people I've met who have 'uncomplicated' pasts tend to be quite peaceful people, open books, often wear their hearts on their sleeves and they're very warm and genuine. It's wonderful - they're basically well adjusted people, and it's a testament to stability and loving parents being what's needed to raise content, happy citizens! lol The only slight downside that I can see with it is that in reality not everyone has that good fortune, meaning that the ones who do can often find it difficult to understand what the world looks like from a bleaker point of reference/experience, and might inadvertently find themselves harshly judging people due to traits whose sources are simply, currently, beyond that person's comprehension.

    It makes it rather difficult for the screwed up person to be helped - in a way it creates a cycle whereby the 'complex' person is continually 'judged' and disapproved of for 'failing' to open up, and yet again their very person, their very way of being is being attacked, invalidated, making it even harder for them to open up than before. This is seen as a flaw in their character by the open one, or a personal slight, thereby forcing the one who's just petrified of opening up for fear of the vulnerability it entails, to create another 'layer' as a way of preserving who they are whilst at the same time at least appearing to give the 'transparent one' what they want (get them off their back).
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #18
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I'm a complicated man and no one understands me but my woman.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Recluse's Avatar
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    I agree with the Layers Theory. There are uncomplicated people, but they consist primarily of those who grew up in sheltered environments. For the rest of us, life has a way of complicating things.

    Brings to mind Dorian Grey in "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," when he miraculously fails to die after getting shot full of bullets and is then asked by his attacker, "Who are you?" His reply: "I'm complicated."
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I didn't say that I didn't say it. I said that I didn't say that I said it. I want to make that very clear.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So, for those who didn't experience abuse, neglect, or any other traumatic events, would that make them less "complex" because they didn't have to learn survival mechanisms to cope with these events? Is this really what complexity is?
    I think that even families in complex situations can be fairly happy. And sometimes things can seem simple on the outside when they are complex on the inside. Most of my early life, my father was in a different country or a different state, simply because he was trying to build a better life for all of us.

    Psychologically speaking, I bear a lot of the traits of someone who grew up without a father, but I don't blame him one bit. We wouldn't have gotten to move to the U.S. and enjoy the life and opportunities that offers if he hadn't struggled to get started. As I get older, I can appreciate more the effort he was making for us. It is simply hard to live life alone (I can imagine even harder to leave wife and kids behind to do that).

    As for survival mechanisms, in a way, yes, your trials and tribulations are a test of character, and one can be allowed to be fairly "simple" if that opportunity is afforded to them.

    In this regard, it is also important to realize that internal circumstances can have just as much an effect as external ones. You are likely to have a lot of trouble in school if you are dyslexic and no one knew, or had autism and no one knew, or any number of learning differences that made you ill suited for the environments you found yourself in. In a way, internal circumstances are worse because you can't tell people that you are having a harder time than the average person and successfully receive help, usually. Most people are too busy with their own stuff to care.

    IMO, most people don't appreciate anyone trying to equate or subsume the pain they went through based on someone else's experience. Certainly there are starving children out there, and there are people worse off than most others. But that does not make things hurt less.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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