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  1. #1
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    Default Positive Disintegration

    Positive Disintegration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Anyone familiar with this theory?

    Its a bit hard to understand (and its been a while since I've actually read all of it), but in a nutshell it is a theory that some people go through stages of great anxiety and depression in the process of self-actualisation. Its a very interesting theory, but that article is a bit difficult to understand at times (it is Wikipedia, so its not exactly written by Debrowski himself).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    I am now. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    Its a bit hard to understand (and its been a while since I've actually read all of it), but in a nutshell it is a theory that some people go through stages of great anxiety and depression in the process of self-actualisation. Its a very interesting theory, but that article is a bit difficult to understand at times (it is Wikipedia, so its not exactly written by Debrowski himself).
    I think there is some truth to this. I read some blurbs about "highly sensitive people" a little while ago. I think there may be some good things about being high on the neuroticsm dimension.

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    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    Yep.

    I've actually been thinking about it a bit lately.

    Have you seen anything that gives a narrative example of what someone in each level might look like?
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    Yep.

    I've actually been thinking about it a bit lately.

    Have you seen anything that gives a narrative example of what someone in each level might look like?
    I have not, but that would be interesting. I think if you look enough you could probably find a discussion forum or blog of soem kind where people describe their own experiences with positive disintegration.

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    This is an inspiring theory, but has unfortunately been hi-jacked by some gifted child educators. I don't think it has anything to do with having talents. I wonder how Dabrowski came up with this idea, since he says he never met anyone who went through all the levels...

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    Default Giftedness and Positive Disintegration

    Over-excitability (OE) is sign of giftedness.

    And the gifted have an Intelligence Quotient (IQ) over 130.

    So imagine you have a normal IQ of 100 and you were talking to someone with an IQ of 70 - how would you feel?

    Well for someone with an IQ of 130 they feel the same talking to you.

    And the gifted are different. They are not only different in IQ but they are also different emotionally - in particular they are called, "over-excitable". Unfortunately this is a pejorative word, so I prefer highly excitable or emotionally labile.

    And naturally the gifted are different in other ways as well.

    For instance they grow and develop as persons through positive disintegration.

    Positive disintegration is not even possible for the normal person because they have already reached their potential integration.

    It is important to note that positive disintegration is a step towards greater integration. Positive intergration is not a step towards disintegration.

    However regression is a step towards disintegration.

    And MBTI is regressive. MBTI does not lead to greater integration. This is plain when you see MBTI has no intellectual integrity.

    How odd it is that lack of intellectual integrity leads to moral turpitude.

    Regression though is comforting. It takes us back to childhood - we regress back to childhood.

    Regression can be useful in therapy - as long it is regression in the service of the ego - but when intellectual integrity is absent, this is not possible.

    So MBTI is not even therapeutic.

    So what is it?

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    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Dabrowski I think had some good thoughts. I remember reading about him when I was doing an essay on education. I didn't know positive disintegration had that much to do with overexcitabilities. I thought overexcitabilities were a function that influenced mostly gifted people and that positive disintegration was sort of an all inclusive theory, anyone could achieve a certain level regardless of ability.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

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    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post

    So imagine you have a normal IQ of 100 and you were talking to someone with an IQ of 70 - how would you feel?

    Well for someone with an IQ of 130 they feel the same talking to you.
    I do see your point here
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    I'm always cautious about attaching things like IQ to self-actualization, although the ability to perceive things from multiple angles and intuit things obviously helps with self-insight and long-term life goals.

    I faintly remember reading this last year when the thread started. Just reading it now is a bit overwhelming after coming so far on my own life journey; it resonates a little too much. As far as D's third factor goes, years ago in a spiritual context I told a friend I trusted that I always felt compelled to grow and change in order to actualize, and it was like I was peddling a bike like mad down a bumpy street, my heart bouncing along behind like tin cans strung to the back bumper. I still feel that way. It took a long time for me to realize not everyone had that drive and some either don't see it or they're just happy where they are.
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    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Dabrowski I think had some good thoughts. I remember reading about him when I was doing an essay on education. I didn't know positive disintegration had that much to do with overexcitabilities. I thought overexcitabilities were a function that influenced mostly gifted people and that positive disintegration was sort of an all inclusive theory, anyone could achieve a certain level regardless of ability.
    Giftedness is exclusionary.

    You can see this with a part of giftedness, IQ.

    IQ does not measure quantity, it measures rarity. So the normal person, and that is almost everyone, is about 100.

    And the person at 160 is equally as rare as someone at 40.

    And oddly enough this is why the gifted are often sympatico with those of low IQ. Both are different from the normal. Both are not understood by the normal. And both are socially excluded by the normal.

    And because we all live under the Bell Curve, the percentage of gifted and those of low IQ is very, very low. So low you may not meet a 160 or a 40 in your entire life.

    And positive disintegration is painful and disorientating, and is avoided by those who have achieved a normal integration.

    I mean a normal person can't see the distinction between positive disintegration and chaos.

    And we perceive by making distinctions - and the more distinctions, the more we see - and the more distinctions we perceive, the higher the IQ.

    So the gifted see more distinctions - you might say, they see more pixels in the same picture - and so they find it easy to see the distinction between positive disintegration and chaos.

    So you might say the gifted see a brighter, clearer picture.

    So you can see the gifted don't see the same thing as the normal.

    And interestingly, they don't feel the same thing as the normal.

    So sympathy, which means feeling the same as, it not much use to the gifted or to those of low IQ.

    And it is by positive disintegration that the gifted are able to move from sympathy to empathy.

    While for the normal, sympathy works.

    And the normal, in spite of what they say, can't see the distinction between sympathy and empathy.

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