Schizophrenic customer making me nervous...

[Afkan]

Proper Procedure for situation

If someone is a danger to themselves or others CALL THE COPS.

Then and there. Done, the problem is not yours any longer.

I promise you, you are doing everyone involved a favor.

Don't worry about what will happen to the individual.

The worst thing that could happen would be an untreated individual with symptoms of schizophrenia spending a night in jail instead of on the streets.

The best case scenario is they receive treatment, medication, and as most cases return as kind, caring, loving individuals who are non-violent.

Most ppl w/ schizophrenia are awesome ppl when treated, after receiving the proper help they need, and are no longer violent.

 

[Mole]

Have you ever seen this sign:

"Management reserves the right to refuse service to ANYONE."

Private ownership is the bomb.

Such a sign would be illegal in my country.

Here all businesses are required to serve the public. Discrimination is not allowed.

This applies to very small businesses as well as huge corporations.

In fact we have a competition watchdog with teeth.

And individual discrimination or corporate discrimination is death to competition.

And the success of our system of economic capitalism depends on competition.

 

[Wiley45]

If someone is a danger to themselves or others CALL THE COPS.

Then and there. Done, the problem is not yours any longer.

I promise you, you are doing everyone involved a favor.

Don't worry about what will happen to the individual.

The worst thing that could happen would be an untreated individual with symptoms of schizophrenia spending a night in jail instead of on the streets.

The best case scenario is they receive treatment, medication, and as most cases return as kind, caring, loving individuals who are non-violent.

Most ppl w/ schizophrenia are awesome ppl when treated, after receiving the proper help they need, and are no longer violent.

If anything looks like it is about to get out of hand, of course I would call the cops. Since I didn't plan to call the cops if the poor woman simply walked through the door, acting normally, I just wondered if there was anything I could do to minimize any excitablity on her part.

 

[amelie]

I wonder if she got excited or confused when you weren't there, because apparently, she looks forward to seeing you. It sounds like you are tremendously patient with her and kind to her - it's no wonder that she feels like you are friends.

Her aggressive behavior really is concerning. I hope you talk to your manager if you haven't already and try and come up with some solutions. You could call the non-emergency police number and explain the situation and see if they can give you any advice. I agree with you that if she's coming in and acting normally, that should be permissible. However, because she has a history of aggressive behavior in your shop, you have to be at least a little cautious around her. You have a right to be safe at work.

 

[Afkan]

If anything looks like it is about to get out of hand, of course I would call the cops. Since I didn't plan to call the cops if the poor woman simply walked through the door, acting normally, I just wondered if there was anything I could do to minimize any excitablity on her part.

Ah. Well, I admire your desire to minimize her excitability. To do that, just engage her in conversation without challenging any beliefs, especially including those that sound false or out of touch with reality. You sound like a very compassionate person, and I am sure you already are successful w/ such techniques.

The reason why someone in her position may throw a chair, for example, or any other potential harmful action, would be merely to defend her delusional belief system. I am sure you understand this- so the answer is simple. Just keep doing what you are doing. Listening in a caring, compassionate manner.

Still I must emphasize that if she does get out of hand I wouldn't feel responsible for calling the police. Only bc its another way of helping her- she will receive the help she needs. That's just my personal bias and getting on my soapbox- wanting to reduce the stigma of mental health treatment. Its not all that bad. I understand what you are saying- you are completely comfortable doing what needs to be done should the situation arise.

 

[CzeCze]

Is there a certain way you should act toward paranoid schizophrenics (unmedicated, I assume) to help keep them calm, or is it useless to try?

One of my jobs is Barista Extraordinaire at a little independent coffee shop, and since employees work solo shifts, people come in to hang out and talk with us a lot. "Betsy" is a middle aged woman who comes in and rants to me a lot, and she kind of thinks we're best buddies. She was the cause of all sorts of drama last week while I was away. Apparently there were two different episodes where Betsy verbally attacked and harassed a customer, and after another episode where she screamed and chased the same woman a few doors down the street, Betsy was arrested. Based on what she was yelling and a quick chat with the police, we've learned that Betsy is mentally ill and has a history of similar problems.

I don't have any qualms about hanging out with mentally ill people, but I am a little concerned about the next time she visits the coffee shop. Betsy mentions things like wanting to break a chair over other customers' heads, so I'm a little nervous about how to act around her if she gets going on one of her rants. Should I continue to act the way I normally do? I already know reasoning with her is useless, but is there any tactic I might try to help her stay calm and happy, or do I need to up my weightlifting and keep the police on speed dial?

Practical advice - stop being so friendly. I see that you are INFP - :sigh: and - and I repeat - stop being so friendly.

What this women may end up doing to you is merely an exxageration of what mentally stable people can end up doing to a standard INFP (I don't mean this is an derogatory way, I mean specifically regarding boundaries and assertiveness - and as another example in many ways I am a standard ENFP) - and that is move beyond your comfort levels, breach the walls of your weakly defended boundaries, and get uncomfortably and even hazardously close.

My (INFP?) friend worked at the cheapest donut shop in town as a teenager. Lots of mentally unstable people (many homeless people, etc.) would stop in. The owner told her if anyone got out of hand to throw the hardened/stale bread at them and he kept a bag of just that under the counter. Along with a baseball bat if things really got out of control. Not a joke.

Stop being so nice and chummy with this woman. Be civil, but don't be so accessible to her. What would you do if it was a creepy guy who came in every day to hit on you? He would probably justify that you like the attention and that you returned his feelings.

That's why this woman thinks your are best buds because unlike other people, you pay her a lot of attention (or so she thinks).

I'm not saying any of this is your fault at all, but there is no underemphasizing the importance of taking up for yourself and presenting strong and clear boundaries to people. Especially in customer service (when I worked retail, a lot of men would incorrectly assume that many of the female staff "liked" them when we were just doing our jobs - we get *paid* to talk to people and be cordial. Some of the scenarios were funny but a lot were NOT.)

I haven't read through all the thread, just your OP but that's my 2 cents.

Do not ever show fear or cater to people when you are afraid of how they will react. You will always end up getting bullied and pushed around in these situations if you react like that. People - even and especially the mentally ill ones - can sense fear and "weakness" and will latch on and/or go in for the kill and basically take advantage of the situation.

Good luck!

 

[Wiley45]

Afkan, thanks for the thoughts. They are helpful.

CzeCze, thanks for your thoughts too. I can ditch a creepy guy in ten seconds, but the situation with this woman always seems different to me. She's always been strange, but never violent or threatening while I was around. Maybe I am inviting trouble by accommodating her. There are probably ways I could talk to her without inviting more conversation. I'll have to think about it. I realize the concept of respecting my own safety and boundaries, though I also feel bad for this woman, as she must live a very lonely life, and I hate to contribute to it negatively. At this point, I guess it doesn't matter, though, since it's been established that she is dangerous.

 

[CzeCze]

Ah see! And there's the rub. I'm sure you do have genuine kindness or sympathy for this woman and she can't get enough. If she hadn't shown herself to be dangerous and also a liability for business I would say it's not a problem unless it makes you uncomfortable. But there's more than just warning flags now and it's best I think for you to step it down.

And I know this is a little off topic and maybe feeding to the side debate that erupted in this thread - but this also reminds me of how my favorite (only) Vietnamese take-out place would allow homeless people to sit in the front patio and just hang out there all day. They basically took over the entire front of his shop. These people never bought anything from the take-out as far as I could see and would even be munching on Fritos or chips from somewhere else. The owner would not only let them sit there all day, but he would encourage them by being very friendly and chatting with them. I thought that was really bad business, it was really sketchy and take-outs are already considered sketchy, no paying customer could really sit there even if they wanted to, etc. That business closed in less than 6 months.

It also reminds me of a man in DC who was well known for making the rounds to different restaurants almost every day and chatting up the manager for 15 minutes to 30 minutes. People who worked in the restaurant business all knew of him and wondered what his deal was (is he an eccentric rich man? on disability and bored? ex-restaurateur?) He seemed to have physical health issues but it was unclear whether that was it.

So basically - yeah, in food retail and the restaurant world there are always characters - but some create an unsafe or alarming environment for patrons and workers and some are just characters.

Sometimes talking to, reciprocating, and encouraging these characters is fine, and sometimes it's a bad idea.

 

[Jae Rae]

This woman has already shown herself to be volatile and scary. Behaviors like loud swearing, paranoid complaining and threatening will get you kicked out of the library where I work. No patron has ever chased someone out of the library and it's hard to even imagine.

Your concern should be with your own safety and, as a representative of your employer, the safety of the other customers. Protean is right - cut back on the niceness. And know your outs.

 

[Afkan]

...though I also feel bad for this woman, as she must live a very lonely life, and I hate to contribute to it negatively...

I hate to be argumentative, but I cannot pass up the opportunity to say:

Individuals with Schizophrenia usually don't feel alone, when unmedicated. In fact, they typically feel they can't get alone enough. She most likely isolates most of her day, and you are most likely the only social contact she has. But that is out of HER choice. She probably won't even feel loneliness until she is pharmaceudically stabilized.

You and I may "feel sorry" for her- and I totally can summon your sentiments, trust me-seeing that she is all alone in the world; It is common for family members to struggle, for example, and often end up neglecting the individual. Schizophrenia is difficult for everyone involved.

My advice is to really put yourself in her shoes. Resist the temptation to put yourself in the shoes you think she wears, seriously tainted by your subjective experience.

 

[statuesquechica]

Individuals with Schizophrenia usually don't feel alone, when unmedicated. In fact, they typically feel they can't get alone enough. She most likely isolates most of her day,

Resist the temptation to put yourself in the shoes you think she wears, seriously tainted by your subjective experience.

I also don't want to be argumentative, but please read your post. Schizophrenia, just like any mental health or physical health diagnosis, has a wide spectrum of functioning levels. Each individual has their own unique symptoms and behaviors, just like you and I.

The only way to know how Betsy feels, is to ask her. She is a person, not just a diagnosis. The same as you or I.

Why do we assume to know what another person is experiencing or what their motives are? Treat people with mental health issues the same as anyone else; with respect and healthy boundaries. If the situation is unsafe, take the necessary steps to protect yourself. Best of luck, Jewelchild.

 

[Afkan]

I also don't want to be argumentative, but please read your post. Schizophrenia, just like any mental health or physical health diagnosis, has a wide spectrum of functioning levels. Each individual has their own unique symptoms and behaviors, just like you and I.

The only way to know how Betsy feels, is to ask her. She is a person, not just a diagnosis. The same as you or I.

Why do we assume to know what another person is experiencing or what their motives are? Treat people with mental health issues the same as anyone else; with respect and healthy boundaries. If the situation is unsafe, take the necessary steps to protect yourself. Best of luck, Jewelchild.

I agree completely, and I apologize for making so many assumptions.

I was going by indicators of functioning level, but with very limited info. That IS shameful.

And yes, agreed, we are all the same inside.

This population is just the same as you and I. I see about 50 members of this pop everyday, and I care about them a great deal.

But bc of the havoc of such a serious mental illness, sometimes on the outside the effects of that havoc can be seen in the ability to function in an environment. And sometimes support and help would benefit greatly.

No assumptions can be made with 100% accuracy, but some assumptions may be made if it helps to understand their experience, imo.

 

[Afkan]

Are you trying to say social isolation == schizophrenia? I have known a schizophrenic person. She used to sit mumbling to herself randomly shouting "shutup" and "goaway" for no apparent reason. That has nothing itself to do with social isolation. But social isolation may possibly make it worse.

Not at all. No, that is definitely not true, that social isolation == schizophrenia. But yes, social isolation often does worsen symptoms. I meant to communicate that the pain of loneliness can be a good thing, it can provide motivation, but someone who cannot feel the pain of loneliness is at a huge disadvantage. Then again, that could be argued bc if someone does not feel isolation, if they are comfortable while isolated, then I shouldn't impose my values on them.

 

[Wiley45]

Whether it's real or perceived, Betsy does feel alone and unliked. She has mentioned this feeling to me on numerous occasions, and expressed thankfulness that I'm one of very few people who will actually talk with and listen to her. I suppose you could see why it would be hard for me to tell her, "Hey Betsy. You have to leave." It won't even make a difference if I explain to her why she has to leave. She'll still feel hurt, and now, after finding me to be a person she can trust and befriend, I will join the list of people who have rejected her.

Inevitable, but still difficult.

 

[Tiltyred]

Is it possible to phrase your request to her in such a way that you're asking a favor? That you've been asked to ask her to go away, and you hate to ask her, but she would be helping you so much if she would comply ...

 

[Wiley45]

You mean blame it on the manager/owner/police/world at large? Yeah, totally! LOL. That's actually a great idea.

 

[Jae Rae]

Trust is a two-way street and she's shown herself to be unpredictable. Read the title of your thread - she makes you nervous. Go with that feeling.

You don't even need to tell her anything, just cool down several degrees and have an exit strategy. You're in an unenviable situation but you have nothing to feel guilty or bad about. You haven't rejected her, you're taking care of yourself.

I had a customer (older guy) who used to visit me every Saturday; one day he gave me a drawing he'd made, then he lunged forward, grabbed me and tried to kiss me. It was unexpected, inappropriate and scary. I immediately left the room and had a colleague remove him from the premises.

Was he a sad, lonely man? Definitely. Did I feel bad I was forced to eject him because he didn't know how to behave himself? Not in the least.

 

[Valuable_Money]

Do the thing she says resemble THis

 

[chasingAJ]

I read the first post and skipped the 15 pages that followed, I apologize if what I'm about to say is a repeat but I didn't want to reel my answer in based on the general consensus.

My father was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was in his early twenties and it took over ten years to find/afford the medications that work. He was killed in a clinical trial for an anti-psychotic and it took the FDA over 10 years to put a warning on the medication. Needless to say, schizophrenia is near and dear to my heart.

Here are some things that you should be aware of:

The statistics on mental illness and violence have been disputed due to the methods used to gather the information. The number of people who have undiagnosed schizophrenia and have NOT been violent are almost impossible to add into the equation. In fact, violence is often the first thing that leads to such a diagnosis. In my experience, our culture is saturated in violence and just about anyone will go there. Ever seen the Bobo Doll experiment?

For the record, some of the psychotropic medications make things WORSE!

Not everyone who's paranoid has schizophrenia and not everyone who has schizophrenia is paranoid. The police are NOT psychiatrists and the ones that are hired by the gov't to handle indigent people are rarely worth a damn. That being said, this woman obviously has some SOCIAL problems. It's not socially acceptable to say you want to break a chair over someones head.

But, here's something to consider...

Is it possible that she has legitimate beef with this other customer and it is easy to blame Betsy because she's "the crazy one"? People often stole things from my father because they could get away with it because "the crazy guy" was just being paranoid and must have sold it for drugs/alcohol (he didn't drink/drug he just naturally seemed high). This too is a social problem. Betsy may be mad because of something seemingly mundane in our culture. But what if this other customer touched her in a sexually inappropriate way and then continued to show up at her favorite coffee shop? I'm sure that half of the people in the shop would have helped her chase this person down. Do you see what I mean?

If she is talking to you, you're fine. You can have a pretty good grasp of her temperament and she considers you safe. When the world is upside down, you need to have safe people that you can trust. The incidents happened when you (presumably her safe person) were not around and she was probably more sensitive to the threats that she perceived (whether you or I would perceive them is irrelevant).

As a woman, when I walk across a dark parking lot with my boyfriend I don't have a care in the world. He is my "safe person" in that environment. Let me walk across that thing alone and I've got my keys out and my bag shifted so that I can attack at any moment. Would I be "mental" for attacking someone who surprised me in this situation? Even if that person meant me no harm? Probably not. The threat is REAL for our society in that situation, but for someone who has a difficult time connecting with "reality" the threat of this woman in the coffee shop may have been just as real.

I would tell Betsy that you could lose your job if she keeps acting out. If you are her safe person, she'll be on her best behavior for fear that you'll be gone. Say that you'll watch her back if she watches yours.

Best of luck
AJ

 

[Wiley45]

Not everyone who's paranoid has schizophrenia and not everyone who has schizophrenia is paranoid. The police are NOT psychiatrists and the ones that are hired by the gov't to handle indigent people are rarely worth a damn.

I don't have any special training, but Betsy definitely seems paranoid to me. Everything is a conspiracy and someone's always out to get her, according to her.

Is it possible that she has legitimate beef with this other customer and it is easy to blame Betsy because she's "the crazy one"?

No, it's not possible. I think it's horrible that people would take advantage of someone in the way you described, but that is not the case here. Betsy believes the customer is someone involved in the legal system who moved from another city to harass her, threaten her with the law, and accuse her of being a child abuser. The customer in question has lived here her entire life, doesn't know Betsy, and doesn't have a job that involves the legal system. Another employee who dealt with the situation told me that explaining these details to Betsy in a calm rational way has no effect.

If she is talking to you, you're fine. You can have a pretty good grasp of her temperament and she considers you safe. When the world is upside down, you need to have safe people that you can trust. The incidents happened when you (presumably her safe person) were not around and she was probably more sensitive to the threats that she perceived (whether you or I would perceive them is irrelevant).

This is part of my dilemma. I am fine with being the "safe" person who makes Betsy feel comfortable in her environment, but at this point I wonder if the establishment has an obligation to customers to protect them from a situation where this type of threatening behavior could occur again.

There is a mental heath clinic nearby, and there are also a bunch of apartments near the coffee shop. Someone recently told me that many mental health patients are sent to live in these apartments when they're trying to learn to adjust to a normal life in a somewhat independent environment. I have been pondering whether it would be a good idea to talk to the people at mental health to see if they can give me suggestions or let me know if they think it's safe to allow Betsy in the shop. However, that seems like an invasion of privacy and I don't even know if they would talk to me.

I appreciate your thoughts, especially since you have experience with schizophrenia and a family member.