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  1. #71
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    For clarity's sake:

    vic?tim?ize
    ??/?v?kt??ma?z/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vik-tuh-mahyz] Show IPA
    Use victimize in a Sentence
    –verb (used with object), -ized, -iz?ing.
    1. to make a victim of.
    2. to dupe, swindle, or cheat: to victimize poor widows.
    3. to slay as or like a sacrificial victim.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  2. #72
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Finally! So your idea of societal victimization is (marginalization, discrimination, hindrance in access to efficient health care, housing opportunities, employment opportunities, etc). Even with your examples, do you not see how it makes sense first of all to find out, first of all, if there's been discrimination and marginalization of purported victims (i.e. if there's been victimization) BEFORE you find out who's the person/entity who caused the sad state of affairs?
    What makes you think I didn't find out BEFORE I spoke of such victimizations? Unlike you, I'm making a claim based on reality.

    Nevertheless, here's some relevant research:
    Employment
    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542517
    http://economics.ca/cgi/jab?journal=...Pv31s1p059.pdf

    Low SES is risk for mental illness:
    http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/ort7513.pdf

    Housing
    Barriers to Housing for Deinstitutionalized Psychiatric Patients -- Alisky and Iczkowski 41 (1): 93 -- Hosp Community Psychiatry
    PsycNET

    Access to health services
    Mental Disorders and Access to Medical Care in the United States -- Druss and Rosenheck 155 (12): 1775 -- Am J Psychiatry
    Barriers to the Care of Persons With Dual Diagnoses: Organizational and Financing Issues -- Ridgely et al. 16 (1): 123 -- Schizophrenia Bulletin

    One of the main reasons: stigma

    If you would like, I can refer you to many studies on the reality of the stigma of mental illness in society and the barriers imposed therein.

    Evidence number 99909 you're not really reading. I gave an example in my first response to you of how the mentally ill could be a victim of society.
    I prolly missed that, sorry, if you would be kind enough to direct again? Thanks.


    This much is clear. I've only asked repeatedly HOW you came to think this and why you think keeping people sane is one of these obligations.
    Keeping people sane? Do you know what mental illness is? Mental illness is treatable not curable. You can't make one sane...just manage their symptoms better.

    This is another of the obligations you apparently have assumed just like that (along with housing and jobs, etc.).
    Well, considering government sees it as their OBLIGATION to provide job opportunities (Economics 101 - productivity of each unit within society leads to increase in society's economic standings). E.g., look at any govt action-plans, especially those spurred forth by the recent bankruptcy of major automobile corporations. For housing, subsized-housing, welfare cheques are given to account for housing costs as well....
    I don't understand how you are ignoring that government, as representative of the society, have and do fulfill such obligations..it's not my imagination. Hence, asking again what exactly you mean by society, because I don't know what real society you speak of.

    I assume nothing of the sort; I prefer to look at each instance of hierarchy on a case by case basis.
    This doesn't logically make sense. Heirarchy means a comparative standing, how do you look at such things on a case by case?

    Do you purport to know how it is done?
    Yes, I'm in the field of public health policy.

    Nevertheless, again, to me it is irrelevant, because I don't think society has an obligation to keep me sane and healthy. It's what I would deem a privilege, not a right.
    Government does have an obligation to keep its people healthy (as for your 'sane' comment, again see my above point about 'sanity')...otherwise, it loses productivity of its unit by increasing disability-adjusted life years. It's not about a moral standing, and the bleeding heart of the government, but a logical and an economical one. Government, as a representation of society, are awarded that power to maintain society's productivity....each unit (human) therefore is part of that equation. Again, economics 101. And, thus, maintaining, as best as feasibly possible, each unit's productivity which is inversely correlated to failings in health.

    The hierarchies should be logical, but if they are not, it's at worst unfortunate, not an instance of victimization.
    I didn't see it the first round, was this an edited add in?
    Regardless, I'm asking for an even basic answer/question....what and how are the heirarchies determined? If you cannot understand how such heirarchies are determined what makes you comment whether it's just an 'unfortunate circumstance' versus 'victimization'?

  3. #73
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What makes you think I didn't find out BEFORE I spoke of such victimizations? Unlike you, I'm making a claim based on reality.
    Um . . . I actually didn't say that. I think your passion for the subject is getting the better of you. I posted that it makes sense to find out if there's victimization. You said, I quote
    Idon't understand how you can apply that to evaluating society's role.
    And I gave an example of how you could apply the "find out first" approach to "societal victimization."

    I prolly missed that, sorry, if you would be kind enough to direct again? Thanks.
    In a hurry. As I said. It was the first or so response to you.


    Keeping people sane? Do you know what mental illness is? Mental illness is treatable not curable. You can't make one sane...just manage their symptoms better.
    I had a schizophrenic relative, thanks for the silly flourish. I meant keeping them medicated so they're less of a danger to themselves and others, not attacking people like crazy Betsy, but my bad - I forget some people are more literal than others.
    Well, considering government sees it as their OBLIGATION to provide job opportunities.
    It's a goal, not a promise or a vested right.


    This doesn't logically make sense. Heirarchy means a comparative standing, how do you look at such things on a case by case?
    Your not understanding does not make it nonsensical. How do you do comparisons without taking particular rankings to compare into account? Do you not compare positions in a hierarchy and see if the rankings make sense?



    Government does have an obligation to keep its people healthy
    Government is not society, but I digress.
    Government has many obligations (personal security) and also lofty goals. It cannot fulfill them all. That does not, ipso facto, mean that a person's insanity is an instance of victimhood. Insanity as here (schizophrenia) is not caused by the governments action, because the government did not "cause" the insane to have the illness. Even if we define victimization extremely broadly, the government further did not dupe, swindle, or cheat the insane. The insanity of the insane is not a result of the government's action or inaction. While it is an admirable goal to have medication for all who need it, it's not an inalienable right - not in the U.S., and failure to provide to some who need it constitutes no deception, swindle or cheat, because the government simply made no promise, even in any mandate to provide health care, that your medication will be covered if you cannot afford it. Nor did it promise that the reason for failure to provide the medication would be sounded out for logical infallibility. Nor that you would be given a reason for it. Here, it is set as a goal to give the privilege of affordable health care, not a right. If I have no right to something, I am not victimized for not getting it, unfair as it might be.

    Each human is not as productive as the next. As you so facetiously stated, the mentally insane are not cured, and as someone who has represented them in the past, even when they have medication - they often still get financial support because they are functional with meds, not exactly stellar producers. You'd need to get hard numbers go beyond Econ 101. But still no assaulted schizophrenic "victims" of the gov - just neglected ones.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #74
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    ^ Is that what you two ladies call: "The Vagina Dialogues"?

  5. #75
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    An illness is caused by a lesion or an infectious agent.

    And as far as I know schizophrenia is not caused by a lesion or an infectious agent. So schizophrenia is not an illness.

    Schizophrenia is called an illness purely for historical reasons.

    At first schizophrenia was called an illness to save schizophrenics from prison. But today schizophenia is called an illness to invalidate the schizophrenic.

    And for the future, the question is not how can we make society safe from schizophrenics, but how can we make society safe for schizophrenics.

  6. #76
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post

    And for the future, the question is not how can we make society safe from schizophrenics, but how can we make society safe for schizophrenics.
    Everyone else should adapt to the needs of the mentally...if they aren't ill what term would you prefer was used?
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Everyone else should adapt to the needs of the mentally...if they aren't ill what term would you prefer was used?
    This is an interesting question, Ceecee.

    Particularly as we don't know what consciousness is, and schizophrenia is a form of consciousness. So of course we don't know what schizophrenia is.

    We do know though it is not criminal nor pathological.

    All we know is that schizophrenics are conscious, just like us.

    And just as socially excluding us is immediately painful and does long term damage, so socially excluding schizophrenics is immediately painful to them and does them long term damage.

    Unfortunately we live in Benjamin Franklin's society where, as he said, "God helps those who help themselves", when we could be living in a society where we loved our neighbour as ourselves, and where we did unto others as we would like them to do unto us.

    So schizophrenic people provide us with a golden opportunity rather than a problem to be removed.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post

    And for the future, the question is not how can we make society safe from schizophrenics, but how can we make society safe for schizophrenics.

    I used to be a member of a forum for about 8 years or so.
    One of my favorite posters had such a fascinating way of looking at things.
    I knew something was different about the guy, but I couldn't put my finger on it.
    He had a very visual mind, and would post images to illustrate his thoughts.
    Now, I was one of the few who understood this guy.
    I could take one look at his images and jump from A to Z.

    Frankly, I thought the guy was brilliant.
    Turned out, he was also schizophrenic.
    He was highly functioning, spoke of his illness openly.

    Schizophrenia doesn't automatically= violence.
    Anyone can be violent.
    But not just anyone, has a gifted mind.

    There is a fine line between genius and madness.
    Perhaps some have forgotten the film, 'A Beautiful Mind.'
    It was based on the life of Nobel Prize Winner, John Forbes Nash Jr.

    "In 1948, in Nash's application to Princeton’s mathematics department,
    Nash's advisor and former Carnegie Tech professor, R.J. Duffin,
    wrote a letter of recommendation consisting of a single sentence:
    "This man is a genius."

    That genius, was also a schizophrenic.

  9. #79
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So schizophrenic people provide us with a golden opportunity rather than a problem to be removed.
    So very true, thanks Victor for your powerful words.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  10. #80
    Senior Member Ism's Avatar
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    You should probably tell someone because of the threat she may pose. Clearly, she has talked about hurting others. Whether or not she'd go through with it is a different story, but with their minds in another realm you can't garuntee anything.

    My mom's boyfriend has a coworker who was/is schizophrenic, and he had to talk to her because she was scaring her fellow employees and customers. I'm not sure if they baker-acted her yet, but it's probably coming.

    My grandmother has a lot of schizophrenic tendencies- delusions, hallucinations, word-salad and the like. With her, unless she didn't take her medication, she was alright and didn't do anything. Without it, and when she had a nervous breakdown, she went around the apartment building and knocked on random doors and accused my mom's old boyfriend of being Hitler (which was actually kind of funny) when we were out near the lake during her manic stage.

    Either way, tell your boss, tell the local police, but act normal around the lady, haha.

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