User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 125

  1. #51
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    intp
    Posts
    3,198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    There's more than one role a society can play. You only assume as a cause. What about maintenance? Or exacerbating? By your line of thought, it's a debate of nature VERSUS nurture....do you have any reasoning for why you are negating nurture - of a more global scale, say, society?
    You think of society as your parent? Have you reworked the meaning of victim, too? How do you get out of a cause if you're claiming victimization?
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  2. #52
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    You think of society as your parent?
    Are parents the only one that nurtures inclinations in children?

  3. #53
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    intp
    Posts
    3,198

    Default

    Is declining to nurture or help victimizing? If you pass a man on the street who could use help and do not offer it, have you victimized him?
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #54
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Is declining to nurture or help victimizing?
    Yes, only if your role assumes some obligation. A society, esp. one that assumes governance means a representative of the people, hence, by its very definition, has obligations. E.g., things such as Charter of Rights, etc., would then be obsolete if we didn't understand society to play the role that it did.

    Unless you can provide me with what you think a society means....
    If you pass a man on the street who could use help and do not offer it, have you victimized him?
    I don't understand the relevance of this analogy...see above.

  5. #55
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    There's more than one role a society can play.
    Yeah but expanding health coverage can be justified without needing characterize people as victims who have a societal right to health care.

    I never liked how some people make it into a giant moral issue and a play on people's emotions. I think we can support it on purely logical grounds.

  6. #56
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    intp
    Posts
    3,198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Yes, only if your role assumes some obligation.
    What kind of obligation do you assume is at work here, such that a failure to provide all medicine to all ill people is society's victimization of the people?

    Unless you can provide me with what you think a society means....
    How about you go into that, as you have some positive ideas of society and its duties and roles?

    I don't understand the relevance of this analogy...see above.
    Well, try to think of the building blocks of society, rather than just the idea of an amorphous superentity there to offer succor and aid wherever you may need it. You are a member of society, are you not?
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  7. #57
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Yeah but expanding health coverage can be justified without needing characterize people as victims who have a societal right to health care.
    One pie, pieces get divided around the table, those that are ignored from a piece must be rationalized in terms of why: (1) they are not part of the table, and/or (2) why their piece is not important. Otherwise, the word 'unfair' could very well be applied...and from there, such words as boo-hoo victims.

    Can you justify either 1 and/or 2, or, counter why 'unfair' isn't relevant then?

    I never liked how some people make it into a giant moral issue and a play on people's emotions. I think we can support it on purely logical grounds.
    Why do you assume it's a moral ground I'm expounding? And, not a logical one? Or, even, that a moral ground cannot be supported by logic?

  8. #58
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    What kind of obligation do you assume is at work here, such that a failure to provide all medicine to all ill people is society's victimization of the people
    All? Did I say all? I'm asking you to justify 'ANY' obligation at all.

    How about you go into that, as you have some positive ideas of society and its duties and roles.
    Nice diverting....I already explained what I saw the role of society to be, again, attempt 2:

    A society, esp. one that assumes governance means a representative of the people, hence, by its very definition, has obligations. E.g., things such as Charter of Rights, etc., would then be obsolete if we didn't understand society to play the role that it did.
    Your turn.

    Well, try to think of the building blocks of society, rather than just the idea of an amorphous superentity there to offer succor and aid wherever you may need it.
    It's not a question of not offering aid wherever you may need it, but, failing to do so, when aid is offered for others in 'peril' (e.g., welfare).

    Edit: as for the building blocks of society versus amorphous superentity...you are assuming a lot of dichotomies on my behalf. Imo, I'd say neither, society is a dynamic process.

  9. #59
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    intp
    Posts
    3,198

    Default

    Why do you assume it's a moral ground I'm expounding? And, not a logical one? Or, even, that a moral ground cannot be supported by logic?
    Not to speak for ajblaise, but: because you haven't provided one, perhaps. i'd be interested to see it.

    It's not a question of not offering aid wherever you may need it, but, failing to do so, when aid is offered for others in 'peril' (e.g., welfare).
    So spell out how failing to help is "victimizing" if help is offered to others. Should we never help anybody given that we can't help everybody? Or just accept that we're victimizing those we don't help?

    A society, esp. one that assumes governance means a representative of the people, hence, by its very definition, has obligations. E.g., things such as Charter of Rights, etc., would then be obsolete if we didn't understand society to play the role that it did.
    That's not a definition, but ok . . . how does this mean that society victimizes people by not providing for every need?
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  10. #60
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Not to speak for ajblaise, but: because you haven't provided one, perhaps. i'd be interested to see it.
    First you tell me what you think the role of society is to the people within it. Tit for tat, m'dear.


    So spell out how failing to help is "victimizing" if help is offered to others. Should we never help anybody given that we can't help everybody?
    Given that we're CHOOSING which groups to help (more or less) versus others...yes, then it slides more into societal hegemonic norms and thus, the field of 'moral' and 'logic' better meet.

Similar Threads

  1. why does using computers make me dizzy/disoriented
    By Ulaes in forum Health and Fitness
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-29-2009, 06:27 AM
  2. How NFPs sometimes make me feel...
    By Athenian200 in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-19-2009, 03:45 PM
  3. This makes me happy, very, very happy.
    By Atomic Fiend in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-30-2009, 05:57 PM
  4. What does it mean if this makes me want to hang myself?
    By swordpath in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 07-07-2008, 09:33 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO