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  1. #111
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afkan View Post
    Individuals with Schizophrenia usually don't feel alone, when unmedicated. In fact, they typically feel they can't get alone enough. She most likely isolates most of her day,

    Resist the temptation to put yourself in the shoes you think she wears, seriously tainted by your subjective experience.
    I also don't want to be argumentative, but please read your post. Schizophrenia, just like any mental health or physical health diagnosis, has a wide spectrum of functioning levels. Each individual has their own unique symptoms and behaviors, just like you and I.

    The only way to know how Betsy feels, is to ask her. She is a person, not just a diagnosis. The same as you or I.

    Why do we assume to know what another person is experiencing or what their motives are? Treat people with mental health issues the same as anyone else; with respect and healthy boundaries. If the situation is unsafe, take the necessary steps to protect yourself. Best of luck, Jewelchild.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    I also don't want to be argumentative, but please read your post. Schizophrenia, just like any mental health or physical health diagnosis, has a wide spectrum of functioning levels. Each individual has their own unique symptoms and behaviors, just like you and I.

    The only way to know how Betsy feels, is to ask her. She is a person, not just a diagnosis. The same as you or I.

    Why do we assume to know what another person is experiencing or what their motives are? Treat people with mental health issues the same as anyone else; with respect and healthy boundaries. If the situation is unsafe, take the necessary steps to protect yourself. Best of luck, Jewelchild.
    I agree completely, and I apologize for making so many assumptions.

    I was going by indicators of functioning level, but with very limited info. That IS shameful.

    And yes, agreed, we are all the same inside.

    This population is just the same as you and I. I see about 50 members of this pop everyday, and I care about them a great deal.

    But bc of the havoc of such a serious mental illness, sometimes on the outside the effects of that havoc can be seen in the ability to function in an environment. And sometimes support and help would benefit greatly.

    No assumptions can be made with 100% accuracy, but some assumptions may be made if it helps to understand their experience, imo.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    Are you trying to say social isolation == schizophrenia? I have known a schizophrenic person. She used to sit mumbling to herself randomly shouting "shutup" and "goaway" for no apparent reason. That has nothing itself to do with social isolation. But social isolation may possibly make it worse.
    Not at all. No, that is definitely not true, that social isolation == schizophrenia. But yes, social isolation often does worsen symptoms. I meant to communicate that the pain of loneliness can be a good thing, it can provide motivation, but someone who cannot feel the pain of loneliness is at a huge disadvantage. Then again, that could be argued bc if someone does not feel isolation, if they are comfortable while isolated, then I shouldn't impose my values on them.

  4. #114
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    Whether it's real or perceived, Betsy does feel alone and unliked. She has mentioned this feeling to me on numerous occasions, and expressed thankfulness that I'm one of very few people who will actually talk with and listen to her. I suppose you could see why it would be hard for me to tell her, "Hey Betsy. You have to leave." It won't even make a difference if I explain to her why she has to leave. She'll still feel hurt, and now, after finding me to be a person she can trust and befriend, I will join the list of people who have rejected her.

    Inevitable, but still difficult.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  5. #115
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Is it possible to phrase your request to her in such a way that you're asking a favor? That you've been asked to ask her to go away, and you hate to ask her, but she would be helping you so much if she would comply ...

  6. #116
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    You mean blame it on the manager/owner/police/world at large? Yeah, totally! LOL. That's actually a great idea.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  7. #117
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Trust is a two-way street and she's shown herself to be unpredictable. Read the title of your thread - she makes you nervous. Go with that feeling.

    You don't even need to tell her anything, just cool down several degrees and have an exit strategy. You're in an unenviable situation but you have nothing to feel guilty or bad about. You haven't rejected her, you're taking care of yourself.

    I had a customer (older guy) who used to visit me every Saturday; one day he gave me a drawing he'd made, then he lunged forward, grabbed me and tried to kiss me. It was unexpected, inappropriate and scary. I immediately left the room and had a colleague remove him from the premises.

    Was he a sad, lonely man? Definitely. Did I feel bad I was forced to eject him because he didn't know how to behave himself? Not in the least.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    Do the thing she says resemble THis
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  9. #119
    Senior Member chasingAJ's Avatar
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    I read the first post and skipped the 15 pages that followed, I apologize if what I'm about to say is a repeat but I didn't want to reel my answer in based on the general consensus.

    My father was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was in his early twenties and it took over ten years to find/afford the medications that work. He was killed in a clinical trial for an anti-psychotic and it took the FDA over 10 years to put a warning on the medication. Needless to say, schizophrenia is near and dear to my heart.

    Here are some things that you should be aware of:

    The statistics on mental illness and violence have been disputed due to the methods used to gather the information. The number of people who have undiagnosed schizophrenia and have NOT been violent are almost impossible to add into the equation. In fact, violence is often the first thing that leads to such a diagnosis. In my experience, our culture is saturated in violence and just about anyone will go there. Ever seen the Bobo Doll experiment?

    For the record, some of the psychotropic medications make things WORSE!

    Not everyone who's paranoid has schizophrenia and not everyone who has schizophrenia is paranoid. The police are NOT psychiatrists and the ones that are hired by the gov't to handle indigent people are rarely worth a damn. That being said, this woman obviously has some SOCIAL problems. It's not socially acceptable to say you want to break a chair over someones head.

    But, here's something to consider...

    Is it possible that she has legitimate beef with this other customer and it is easy to blame Betsy because she's "the crazy one"? People often stole things from my father because they could get away with it because "the crazy guy" was just being paranoid and must have sold it for drugs/alcohol (he didn't drink/drug he just naturally seemed high). This too is a social problem. Betsy may be mad because of something seemingly mundane in our culture. But what if this other customer touched her in a sexually inappropriate way and then continued to show up at her favorite coffee shop? I'm sure that half of the people in the shop would have helped her chase this person down. Do you see what I mean?

    If she is talking to you, you're fine. You can have a pretty good grasp of her temperament and she considers you safe. When the world is upside down, you need to have safe people that you can trust. The incidents happened when you (presumably her safe person) were not around and she was probably more sensitive to the threats that she perceived (whether you or I would perceive them is irrelevant).

    As a woman, when I walk across a dark parking lot with my boyfriend I don't have a care in the world. He is my "safe person" in that environment. Let me walk across that thing alone and I've got my keys out and my bag shifted so that I can attack at any moment. Would I be "mental" for attacking someone who surprised me in this situation? Even if that person meant me no harm? Probably not. The threat is REAL for our society in that situation, but for someone who has a difficult time connecting with "reality" the threat of this woman in the coffee shop may have been just as real.

    I would tell Betsy that you could lose your job if she keeps acting out. If you are her safe person, she'll be on her best behavior for fear that you'll be gone. Say that you'll watch her back if she watches yours.

    Best of luck
    AJ

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasingAJ View Post
    Not everyone who's paranoid has schizophrenia and not everyone who has schizophrenia is paranoid. The police are NOT psychiatrists and the ones that are hired by the gov't to handle indigent people are rarely worth a damn.
    I don't have any special training, but Betsy definitely seems paranoid to me. Everything is a conspiracy and someone's always out to get her, according to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by chasingAJ View Post
    Is it possible that she has legitimate beef with this other customer and it is easy to blame Betsy because she's "the crazy one"?
    No, it's not possible. I think it's horrible that people would take advantage of someone in the way you described, but that is not the case here. Betsy believes the customer is someone involved in the legal system who moved from another city to harass her, threaten her with the law, and accuse her of being a child abuser. The customer in question has lived here her entire life, doesn't know Betsy, and doesn't have a job that involves the legal system. Another employee who dealt with the situation told me that explaining these details to Betsy in a calm rational way has no effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by chasingAJ View Post
    If she is talking to you, you're fine. You can have a pretty good grasp of her temperament and she considers you safe. When the world is upside down, you need to have safe people that you can trust. The incidents happened when you (presumably her safe person) were not around and she was probably more sensitive to the threats that she perceived (whether you or I would perceive them is irrelevant).
    This is part of my dilemma. I am fine with being the "safe" person who makes Betsy feel comfortable in her environment, but at this point I wonder if the establishment has an obligation to customers to protect them from a situation where this type of threatening behavior could occur again.

    There is a mental heath clinic nearby, and there are also a bunch of apartments near the coffee shop. Someone recently told me that many mental health patients are sent to live in these apartments when they're trying to learn to adjust to a normal life in a somewhat independent environment. I have been pondering whether it would be a good idea to talk to the people at mental health to see if they can give me suggestions or let me know if they think it's safe to allow Betsy in the shop. However, that seems like an invasion of privacy and I don't even know if they would talk to me.

    I appreciate your thoughts, especially since you have experience with schizophrenia and a family member.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

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