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  1. #31
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    When you say that stealing is wrong (bad), it is because it statistically is more bad than good - right?
    Errm no not really. I just know I'd be pissed off if people did it to me

    I guess you could reason that it's the same thing but that's really where I got the direction for my answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Hehe, I did admit that my assumption about being anti-social/sociopathic was silly. I have just often been meet with silence or disgust when I've told people that I didn't really perceive e.g. the act of killing as bad as a starting point.
    Silly? Nah. I've often thought about if I could pull the trigger. It's got to be a natural progression from noting that whilst everybody else is bursting into tears or rage your standing there with a quizzical expression trying to figure out if they're faking it, if life has suddenly become a parody of sopa operas or if they really are such prima donnas (oh yeah I mean "normal" ).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #32
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What interests me is that if he can do it anyway then does he validate doing it? If he validates doing it then what is the difference between that and it being right? If the only difference is the period for which the validation stands then it still stands that at that instance it was evaluated as the right thing to do.
    No, there is no justification. I make the decision I make with full knowledge of what I am doing and what it will do. The core part of my view on morality is that we make the best decision we can at that moment. It doesn't make, however, the decision right. There are always more optimal solutions that aren't acceptable to us or are not universally good.

    By validation, however, I mean redefine morality to suit what was convienent for me. If I decide to go out right now and steal a bunch of stuff, I'm not going to change theft into a conditional statement. I believe morality is objective and universal, except that we are not in a position to actually achieve it. Large scale dynamics makes optimal choices impossible; at the personal level, every choice we make sacrifices some degree of 'rightness'.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Because despite believing the act is wrong, I just want to do it or feel that it is the best of all the crappy options I have available at the time.
    That's how I feel as well. To take another analogy, if I was addicted to drugs and decided to steal something... I know that stealing is wrong, but the drive behind it is very strong. Can I really validate it as "I needed money for drugs, so stealing is ok"? I don't see variations on the theme any better.

  3. #33
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Hehe, I did admit that my assumption about being anti-social/sociopathic was silly. I have just often been meet with silence or disgust when I've told people that I didn't really perceive e.g. the act of killing as bad as a starting point.
    How could one assume the act of killing is always wrong? Or maybe I don't see it that way because I'm American?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #34
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    When you talk about making cost/benefit analyses in deciding whether or not to be disloyal, lie or break people's trust, are you primarily deciding on what's better for them, what's better for you, or what's better for all concerned? Whose cost and whose benefit are your usual primary concerns?

  5. #35
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    PT, I agree. It's all about whether you focus on the big picture, the guidelines, or if you focus on the exceptions. That much is clear now. You and park are on the same page just reading in opposite directions.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    How could one assume the act of killing is always wrong? Or maybe I don't see it that way because I'm American?
    I think most Europeans have the same negative value attacted to killing as they have to stealing etc. on top of that, we don't have the death penalty anymore which may add to that.

    JivinJeffJones When you talk about making cost/benefit analyses in deciding whether or not to be disloyal, lie or break people's trust, are you primarily deciding on what's better for them, what's better for you, or what's better for all concerned? Whose cost and whose benefit are your usual primary concerns?
    It's a subjective big picture evaluation.

    Scenario:
    You are shipwrecked on a deserted island with a child. You don't have any food and you don't know if you'll ever get back to civilization again. The child eventually dies of starvation and you either have to eat the corpse or suffer the same destiny. You choose to eat the corpse, survive and is eventually rescued.

    When you get back to civilization, the childs parents and loved ones ask you if you know how the child died and if you know where his/her remains are since they would like to travel to the island and bring home the body to give their child a proper funeral.

    - Do you tell the parents the truth. The child suffered a long painful death and afterwards his/her remains passed through your digestion system?

    - Or do you lie and e.g. tell the parents that the child drowned which is why the corpse can't be found?
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  7. #37
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post

    - Do you tell the parents the truth. The child suffered a long painful death and afterwards his/her remains passed through your digestion system?

    - Or do you lie and e.g. tell the parents that the child drowned which is why the corpse can't be found?
    In this scenario, do you make your decision based on what would be better for the parents to hear/know, or what would be better for you? eg if you decided to lie to them, would you do so to spare them a painful truth, or would you do so perhaps to spare yourself the consequences of telling the truth? Obviously these would not be the only two possible motivations for lying in the scenario you outlined. But would you act primarily for the benefit of them, or you?

    I'm not asking this necessarily to determine what would be the most logical or ethical course of action, but I'm interested to hear what the primary underlying value driving your decision-making is.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    In this scenario, do you make your decision based on what would be better for the parents to hear/know, or what would be better for you? eg if you decided to lie to them, would you do so to spare them a painful truth, or would you do so perhaps to spare yourself the consequences of telling the truth?
    I would lie and I wouldn't do it to spare myself. In the situation above, I perceive dishonesty as a virtue.

    Obviously these would not be the only two possible motivations for lying in the scenario you outlined. But would you act primarily for the benefit of them, or you?
    In the situation above, it would be primarily the parents but ideally both. In reality I'm probably not better nor worse than most people. i.e. I can't say I never told a lie with less honorable intentions than in that scenario.

    I'm not asking this necessarily to determine what would be the most logical or ethical course of action, but I'm interested to hear what the primary underlying value driving your decision-making is.
    Ptgatsby made me aware earlier in the thread that the way I reason is very close to utilitarianism. I.e. "the moral worth of an action is determined by its outcome".
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    It's a subjective big picture evaluation.

    Scenario:
    You are shipwrecked on a deserted island with a child. You don't have any food and you don't know if you'll ever get back to civilization again. The child eventually dies of starvation and you either have to eat the corpse or suffer the same destiny. You choose to eat the corpse, survive and is eventually rescued.

    When you get back to civilization, the childs parents and loved ones ask you if you know how the child died and if you know where his/her remains are since they would like to travel to the island and bring home the body to give their child a proper funeral.

    - Do you tell the parents the truth. The child suffered a long painful death and afterwards his/her remains passed through your digestion system?

    - Or do you lie and e.g. tell the parents that the child drowned which is why the corpse can't be found?
    If that isn't a case against honesty being the best policy, I'd like to see what is. Nobody wins with that particular truth.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If that isn't a case against honesty being the best policy, I'd like to see what is. Nobody wins with that particular truth.
    But is that a case for acting amoral? No intrinsic value to truth...?

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