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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Because despite believing the act is wrong, I just want to do it or feel that it is the best of all the crappy options I have available at the time.
    But wouldn't it be easier to say "the act is neutral but obtains a positive or negative value in a certain context"?

    By adding a negative value to the act from the very beginning, you'r locked and are forced to violate your logic-value system in order to carry out the act.
    Verbal IQ Test

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    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  2. #22
    Senior Member raincrow007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I may not post whore enough but when I do I shall use this as my title. Never heard of it before but I like it
    Obviously you never had to do it as punishment.

    Fuckin'goodytwoshoes.

  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    But wouldn't it be easier to say "the act is neutral but obtains a positive or negative value in a certain context"?

    By adding a negative value to the act from the very beginning, you'r locked and are forced to violate your logic-value system in order to carry out the act.
    It would be easier. I'm not sure that it would be better, though. For me, it is not possible.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I may not post whore enough but when I do I shall use this as my title. Never heard of it before but I like it
    if you know what a chalkboard is, you're showing your age.

    (As I wrote it, I realized that we might be to the "Whiteboard" technological stage of society. Yikes!)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Are they aware of it as "the societies norm" or as a value which is desirable? It's a critical distinction I think.
    True, from what I read, it's the first.

    I knew for many years that 2+2=4 but I only understood it a few years ago.
    I studied maths in school and was taught that a minus multiplied by a minus is a plus but only once I'd reached university did it occur to me to ask why and then understood (thought I've forgotten it now).

    Before understanding how can you say it's your value? Imposed values are not your own. A freethinking mind looks at why it may be bad to kill by disregarding the imposed values. Only after they have done this do they decide if killing is bad or not.

    That's the difference I'm thinking of.
    This makes me wonder if Fs or SJs, who often seem to easily be able to follow society's norm when it comes to good/bad, are able to do so because they don't ask questions to whether e.g. stealing is bad or because the norm values instictively feels right?

    What interests me is that if he can do it anyway then does he validate doing it? If he validates doing it then what is the difference between that and it being right? If the only difference is the period for which the validation stands then it still stands that at that instance it was evaluated as the right thing to do.
    That's why I find it easier to not apply a negative value to e.g. the act of stealing from the very beginning. It's like saying "weapons are bad" - "no weapons are not bad but they can be used in bad contexts".
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It would be easier. I'm not sure that it would be better, though. For me, it is not possible.
    I know, I'm not saying it would be better/worse either, just two different ways of reasoning .
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Good idea.
    My version.

    Q. Is stealing wrong?
    A. As a generalisation, yes.

    Q. What if you are starving?
    A. Again as a generalisation, yes but in terms of stealing food from someone who will not suffer unduly from it's absence then possibly not. In fact probably not as life is worth more than food in my opinion.

    Q. So you'd starve rather than steal?
    A. No. That'd be martyring myself for something I do not value that highly.

    Q. So it is ok to steal if you are starving?
    A. Absolutely it CAN be. Depending upon circumstances.
    When you say that stealing is wrong (bad), it is because it statistically is more bad than good - right?

    How'd I do?

    Am I sociopath yet?
    Hehe, I did admit that my assumption about being anti-social/sociopathic was silly. I have just often been meet with silence or disgust when I've told people that I didn't really perceive e.g. the act of killing as bad as a starting point.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  8. #28
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    This makes me wonder if Fs or SJs, who often seem to easily be able to follow society's norm when it comes to good/bad, are able to do so because they don't ask questions to whether e.g. stealing is bad or because the norm values instictively feels right?
    I think I've figured out the noted difference that makes people look at sensors as less likely to think about such things and about them being so accepting.

    Sensors tend to be more now focused, yes?
    If you are explaining something to an S then they should be following you step for step, yes? (I say should cause I know for a fact that Lori often get's bored half way through and then god knows where she'll end up!!)

    So perhaps it's most true to say that Ss tend to accept more than Ns do because they follow the reasoning given as it's given whilst Ns are trying to compare it to past experiences and apply context which tends to highlight differences and prompt for more questions to be asked etc.

    [Not specifically on topic but I found it interesting ]

    Oh and Jennifer, 1977 to now. Chalkboards are my friend. I hate whiteboards. Oh and if schools worked at any decent rate of technological progression then it'd be OHP wipe or something.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #29
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raincrow007 View Post
    Obviously you never had to do it as punishment.

    Fuckin'goodytwoshoes.
    Of course not. Who's stupid enough to be caught these days?
    I mean.. jeez!!

    (Long time no speak)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Personally, I think psychological terms are thrown around with far too startling regularity. With the increase of private therapy for people and diagnoses being thrown around left and right so people can receive medication, many words have made it into the common vernacular that I think used to have more meaning. Many of the these "mental illnesses" should really be reserved for people who cannot function independently in society without treatment.

    "Sociopath" happens to be a word I would not apply to general members of the population. I even bristle a bit when I hear it applied to people like Scott Peterson; I would not nearly place him on the same level as a Ted Bundy type. There needs to be some distinction in how words are used, or they lose meaning.
    Yeah, Cafe posted this on the INTPC which helped to put things into perspective for me.

    In addition to lifestyle and criminal behavior the checklist assesses glib and superficial charm, grandiosity, need for stimulation, pathological lying, conning and manipulating, lack of remorse, callousness, poor behavioral controls, impulsivity, irresponsibility, failure to accept responsibility for one's own actions and so forth.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

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