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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Personally, I think psychological terms are thrown around with far too startling regularity. With the increase of private therapy for people and diagnoses being thrown around left and right so people can receive medication, many words have made it into the common vernacular that I think used to have more meaning. Many of the these "mental illnesses" should really be reserved for people who cannot function independently in society without treatment.

    "Sociopath" happens to be a word I would not apply to general members of the population. I even bristle a bit when I hear it applied to people like Scott Peterson; I would not nearly place him on the same level as a Ted Bundy type. There needs to be some distinction in how words are used, or they lose meaning.

    This was just a test created for a "lark" and to catch people's eye. (The "Oh look, my friend is a psycho!" curiosity.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Am I sociopath yet?
    Well, YOU are... but what's that have to do with anything?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post

    There is something intrinsic about morality that makes people believe they always act morally. I do not agree. I know what is right and wrong, but I don't try to justify it by shifting my view to make my actions right. I simply do wrong when I must.
    ..........
    Course, this is different than your utilitarian/pragmatic/self serving approach Park, but it seems that there are certain assumptions made to layman's philosophy...
    Good point.

    I also think that the "decisions made under duress" applies in this discussion. Using an extreme example - if a camel caravan stopped after noticing you standing in a desert near death from having become stranded there somehow, they might make you an offer to join them to avoid dying of thirst etc., but tell you that in order to do so you must become a slave of theirs for life. They tell you that you can choose to stay there and die in the desert as a "free" person or willingly join the caravan as a slave. Would you be honest with them and say that you were choosing to stay in the desert ? Would you tell them "I'll join as a slave until my first opportunity to escape you?" or would you pretend to be a slave and act as though you accepted their reasoning ? Many situations in life seem less extreme examples of this. One accepts "offers" made ( situations ) and discards them when the time is right.

    Such decisions are even easier to make or "justify" for someone who feels their very presence in the "desert" itself was compelled by circumstances beyond a reasonable amount of control. Of course this sort of thinking can be carried to an opposite extreme where people say ( in all sincerity ) "I didn't so much "steal" an item from X, as take advantage of X not following a default obligation level of protectiveness."
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  3. #13
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Personally, I think psychological terms are thrown around with far too startling regularity. With the increase of private therapy for people and diagnoses being thrown around left and right so people can receive medication, many words have made it into the common vernacular that I think used to have more meaning. Many of the these "mental illnesses" should really be reserved for people who cannot function independently in society without treatment.
    Hypochondriac
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    "Sociopath" happens to be a word I would not apply to general members of the population. I even bristle a bit when I hear it applied to people like Scott Peterson; I would not nearly place him on the same level as a Ted Bundy type. There needs to be some distinction in how words are used, or they lose meaning.
    In which case then the parameters need better defining.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This was just a test created for a "lark" and to catch people's eye. (The "Oh look, my friend is a psycho!" curiosity.)
    Seriously, they ALL are. One man's joke is another man's truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, YOU are... but what's that have to do with anything?
    Apple polisher.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    Good point.

    I also think that the "decisions made under duress" applies in this discussion. Using an extreme example - if a camel caravan stopped after noticing you standing in a desert near death from having become stranded there somehow, they might make you an offer to join them to avoid dying of thirst etc., but tell you that in order to do so you must become a slave of theirs for life. They tell you that you can choose to stay there and die in the desert as a "free" person or willingly join the caravan as a slave. Would you be honest with them and say that you were choosing to stay in the desert ? Would you tell them "I'll join as a slave until my first opportunity to escape you?" or would you pretend to be a slave and act as though you accepted their reasoning ? Many situations in life seem less extreme examples of this. One accepts "offers" made ( situations ) and discards them when the time is right.
    Would it not be true to say though that the person who is dying of thirst is always in possession of the truth of what they mean though in that circumstance?

    The point is not whether or not the offer is accepted but if it is validated and right, well aside from the bit about whether it's actually possible to do something deliberately which at that moment you think is wrong.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Hypochondriac
    Hey, it's not my fault I'm so sick all the time!

    Apple polisher.
    Chalkboard eraser duster.

    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    Would you be honest with them and say that you were choosing to stay in the desert ? Would you tell them "I'll join as a slave until my first opportunity to escape you?" or would you pretend to be a slave and act as though you accepted their reasoning ? Many situations in life seem less extreme examples of this. One accepts "offers" made ( situations ) and discards them when the time is right.
    Excellent point. So would this get one labeled as "amoral"? Or can one still be a "moral" person and behave this way?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Why would a person do something unless they thought it was right? Surely all acts are justified at the point when they are committed and only subject to self recrimination afterwards?
    Because despite believing the act is wrong, I just want to do it or feel that it is the best of all the crappy options I have available at the time.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Because despite believing the act is wrong, I just want to do it or feel that it is the best of all the crappy options I have available at the time.
    What she said.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Because despite believing the act is wrong, I just want to do it or feel that it is the best of all the crappy options I have available at the time.
    Have you not just validated it in reference to the circumstances though? Have you not just justified your choice?

    Morals are often broad statements which are generic in terms of application and unspecified in terms of when they are to be applied. These are specific circumstances where you disregard such normal morals and go with what you will actually do.

    Now without straying too far into depravity there are some things which a person will not do regardless of it being the best option present. These I'd say are higher than mere socially set morals.

    Now I've forgotten the point... damn these people wanting me to work!!

    Oh yeah.
    Right the difference as I see it between the immoral and the moral is the level of persuasion necessary to break from what they hold as their values.

    Sociopaths would not require much pressure (sociopaths as I understand the proper psychological condition that is).

    A freethinker would be one who may or may not be moral but decides those morals based on their own thoughts and not necessarily the acceptance or rejection of commonly stated moral values as prescribed by "the system" which is society.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #19
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Chalkboard eraser duster.
    I may not post whore enough but when I do I shall use this as my title. Never heard of it before but I like it
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #20
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Have you not just validated it in reference to the circumstances though? Have you not just justified your choice?
    I can believe something is wrong and that I should not do it but still have it win out in the cost/benefit analysis, at least for the moment it takes to do (or fail to do) it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Morals are often broad statements which are generic in terms of application and unspecified in terms of when they are to be applied. These are specific circumstances where you disregard such normal morals and go with what you will actually do.

    Now without straying too far into depravity there are some things which a person will not do regardless of it being the best option present. These I'd say are higher than mere socially set morals.

    Now I've forgotten the point... damn these people wanting me to work!!
    I think under the right circumstances everyone is capable of doing almost every good or evil thing imaginable and I am no exception. That doesn't mean that I think those things are right to do, though. It means this is not a perfect world and we are not perfect beings.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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