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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Um...a few posts back, I stated I was commenting on your criticisms, from the lens of this particular study, so that we can cleanly and precicely target our dialogue, without talking about "original studies" out there (without any specific references). Which, thanks for the offer of wanting to provide for me. I'll stick to this study for now.

    I think we are understanding behaviour to be two different things in this instance. I'm talking of explicit behaviour as a measurement of a reaction to a given stimulus. You are talking of homosexual behaviour to be interchangeable with how one is defining homsexuality (I agree with this). (e.g., this original study talked of previous studies that looked at brain imaging when they had the subjects 'smell' pheremones and quantifying arousal, and that, it was SPECIFICALLY controlling for such indication of 'behavioural' response, so that it can cleanly look at what the brain is telling at a 'resting phase', i.e., no stimulus with reactionary behaviour)

    To elucidate -

    From the original article/the study:
    However,the major purpose of the present study was to investigate how the rCBF covaries between the amygdala and the rest of the brain during a condition not associated with perceptive, emotional, or cognitive tasks, which could be linked to sexual orientation or behavior.

    By prompting subjects to concentrate on breathing the room air we aimed to minimize variations caused by spontaneous reflections or judgments.




    And, this is how they grouped the subjects on homosexuality versus heterosexuality:
    Subjects. Twenty-fiveHeM(age 304 years), 25HeW(age 314 years), 20HoM (age 32 7 years), and 20 HoW (age 31 5 years) were included. All subjects participated in the MR study, and 50 of them (13 HeM, 13 HeW, 12 HoM, and 12 HoW) also participated in the PET studies. All of the subjects were right-handed (60), healthy, and HIV negative. The heterosexual men and women all scored 0, thehomosexual men,and the homosexual womenon average 5.5 on the Kinsey heterosexual/homosexual scale (0 maximally heterosexual, 6 maximally homosexual) (61). In addition to scoring themselves on the Kinsey scale (which is based on self-identification), the subjects also participated in interviews regarding three dimensions of sexual orientation (fantasy, romantic attraction, and sexual behavior) over consecutive 5-year historical time periods, from age 16 to the present (5, 62). All decisions about subjects’ sexual orientation were made in ignorance of the subjects’ PET and MR data.

    Meaning, it is more than just behaviours.


    ***


    Fair enough, but I don't know why you seem aggravated with my countering you, I usually ask for precise clarifications before I tackle a point of another so that I don't wrongly assume their point of view/put words in their mouth, etc (also, it gave me the chance to really read up on the article, stalling time, and all, can't read too fast. ). Nothing more, really.

    And, my initial engagement with you was in regards to your criticism of this scientic study and tackling those criticisms that you agreed with, through your initial agreement with another poster (avolkiteshvara) on this thread. Hence, leaving our conversation in this thread versus PM. I'm interested in talking about the OP topic, including dialogue from all out there, through our discourse, and the study it relates to, and criticisms on this thread brought up by it (one of them happened to be you). Not about yours or mine's personal investment (lack of) in it.



    I spar when a topic interests me, regardless of the pretty face who writes on the topic. I don't pick topics by people, but by the interest piqued in the topic itself. Regardless, my apologies for my supposed aggravation caused in you.

    For anyone else, I hunted down the original article (I despise reading scientific studies summarized by pop media, and go to the primary source).

    Savic, I., & Lindstrom, P. (2008). PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 105(27), 9403-9408.

    I found a free access to this article (early print edition):
    PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects — PNAS

    Enjoy!
    Well I wasn't aggravated, I had an appointment I needed to get to (at 12:45), but after reading this post I am. With that, you're welcome to do your own research. Those decisions regarding the orientation were, btw, evaluations made based on the self-reported behavior of the participants.

  2. #32
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    What about effeminate heterosexual males? Larry the Lavender?

  3. #33
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    So, what about the idea that (theoretically) every male have homo/bisexual tendencies, just as well as every female have lesbian/bisexual tendencies?

    ... I don't understand.

    The article's information came across as 'skewed', to be honest.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    So, what about the idea that (theoretically) every male have homo/bisexual tendencies, just as well as every female have lesbian/bisexual tendencies?
    I seem to only hear this from women, I know in my case (as a guy) before I had really even considered the notion of attraction to anyone (so I could hardly be lying to myself) hitting puberty was like someone flicked a switch and it was definitely switched in one way only.

    I'm very skeptical about that theory.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I seem to only hear this from women...
    I think many of them only say it to seem "hot."

  6. #36
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    I'm a straight male, and I would think that the attraction takes place at any time - even between the same gender... only that it's disproved in society to be homosexual. That's to say, something else occurs with attraction, and not that a pair are attracted to one another just because one is male, and the other is female.

    ... It's to do with 'types' - like a lot of girls I find I can approach, but I'm really interested in one kind of type.

    I think gay males are simply confused people - probably living a life of guilt, because they fell for other males, and not realized that it was because it's not because they're attracted to 'males' but attracted to a 'person' of their type. You often find homosexual pairs sticking to the same partner (throughout). That person could easily have been a woman. In this way, I would think gay males could be attracted to females... of their particular type. Possibly then, it affects their brain chemicals that... in the long-run.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's hard to tell what bi is. We know with same-sex attraction, the attraction is just wired opposite of other-sex attraction. How do we define "bi" exactly, and how socially driven is it versus an instinctive drive?
    Double blessed with functional both male and female brain sexual wiring?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Well I wasn't aggravated, I had an appointment I needed to get to (at 12:45), but after reading this post I am.
    Lemme add to that aggravation.

    I'll copy what I said in the previous post, when I had hoped that we were establishing a common ground on the words we both used, but, seemingly differently:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I think we are understanding behaviour to be two different things in this instance. I'm talking of explicit behaviour as a measurement of a reaction to a given stimulus.
    Even if you do not see behaviour to mean ^ (which I pointed out was our different starting points), it (the study) STILL DOES NOT support what you say, unless they're calling behavior, behavior, behavior by three different names because they are having fun being redundant?

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Those decisions regarding the orientation were, btw, evaluations made based on the self-reported behavior of the participants.
    Once again from the study:

    [B]The heterosexual men and women all scored 0, thehomosexual men,and the homosexual womenon average 5.5 on the Kinsey heterosexual/homosexual scale (0 maximally heterosexual, 6 maximally homosexual) (61). In addition to scoring themselves on the Kinsey scale (which is based on self-identification), the subjects also participated in interviews regarding three dimensions of sexual orientation (fantasy, romantic attraction, and sexual behavior) over consecutive 5-year historical time periods, from age 16 to the present (5, 62). All decisions about subjects’ sexual orientation were made in ignorance of the subjects’ PET and MR data.[/quote]

    FYI, the Kinsey Scale asks questions on sexual history (yes, behavior) AND DESIRES (which you'd have to argue is a behaviour....by taking it outside the realm of what the field of Psychology, most prominently Behaviorism, & its classification of what a behavior means - an action or reaction to an environmental stimulus, the one I gave in the previous post). I'm gonna take an inferred guess and say, the study prolly means behavior to mean what I meant, being in the field of Psychology (Neuroscience) and all.

    With that, you're welcome to do your own research.
    You keep telling me to do this (btw, I, not you, looked up the original article...horse's mouth, to speak). So, take your own advice?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think gay males are simply confused people - probably living a life of guilt, because they fell for other males, and not realized that it was because it's not because they're attracted to 'males' but attracted to a 'person' of their type.
    ?

    You often find homosexual pairs sticking to the same partner (throughout).
    ??

    That person could easily have been a woman. In this way, I would think gay males could be attracted to females... of their particular type.
    ???!!!

    This type thing, tell me you're meaning ['body']type in those instances...

  10. #40
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    You keep telling me to do this (btw, I, not you, looked up the original article...horse's mouth, to speak). So, take your own advice?
    My dear sweet uninformed child I have spent the last four years of my life reading these articles (please refer to earlier posts on this issue). I even offered to provide references twice. If you'd actually read the original study and not the one that the L.A. Times diluted down to utter garbage, you'd have seen that the study itself was based on years of others people's work on the very same issue (see references). Apparently, this is not a field of inquiry you've actually been paying much attention to.

    If you're too slow to recognize the Kinsey dimensions for what they are--behavior--there's nothing I can do for you. You clearly have a bug up your behind over this issue. No amount of reason is going to change that and you're getting boring. I'm done.
    Last edited by juggernaut; 06-06-2009 at 04:01 PM.

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