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  1. #841
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    ISTJ is the wisest
    I am the batman.

  2. #842
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kas View Post
    I can’t agree that IQ level is completely useless and says nothing as it was told in this tread before .
    I don’t understand this hate on IQ, probably people are taking it too personally. Of course as there are various brain abilities, IQ is only part of the bigger picture. I think it’s mostly based on analyzing details and abstract thinking so my guess would be that NT types would statistically have best scores. Probably Ti users, so INTPs and ENTPs.

    But it’s only generalizing (maybe even stereotyping; there is a fine line between)because we are so different...
    For me I don't hate IQ on principle, it measures something and gives a somewhat workable metric.

    I believe the real issue stems from the fact that a lot of people don't even know how IQ works, they only want it for status, they use it for the wrong reasons and to imply things that aren't necessarily true.
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  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    It really depends on the question. Don't give me questions based on "unscramble" this word. But give me complicated math questions, complicated word questions, something where you actually apply problem solving abilities and I fly through those. Give me history questions or what does this word mean questions and its hit or miss as its based on knowledge, not actually figuring something out.

    I worked at Texas Instruments and the best Technician called everything doodads, whatcha macallits, thingymagigys, etc. But he knew exactly how everything interacted and worked together, he just didn't have a clue what it was called. He was a back woods, swamp living, sensor type that was hard to understand because of his accent. Highly intelligent person, but his verbal skills, etc. were lacking. He was the type that would call in hung over instead of call in sick. But he ran circles around the people who worked for the company that built the machines. We are talking 30-120 million dollar photolithography machines, not some simple mechanical machine.

    FWIW, I score very high on IQ tests and enjoy mensa workouts where you actually have to analyze and solve problems.
    I was in dmos 4 and 5 back in 8 inch days. I created many of the recipes ran at the time.

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  5. #845
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Poki

    That reminds me of when I beat someone at chess when I promoted a pawn to a knight instead of a queen. They'd prepared their defense for a queen promotion which is almost what all beginners and even a lot of intermediate players go to first without hardly thinking and when I pulled out a knight instead, she just fell apart and didn't know how to handle it.

  6. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tippo View Post
    I was in dmos 4 and 5 back in 8 inch days. I created many of the recipes ran at the time.
    Nice . I was an equipment technician in KFab before they shut it down. Was strictly 12 inch wafers and an R&D fab so when its technology became old it was cheaper to build a bigger and more advanced fab then expand and retool KFab.

    I eventually moved out of photolithography and designed systems for equipment engineering department. Things like a chemical management system that tracked all the bottled chemicals within a fab. It was used to make sure the right chemical went into the right spot and wasn't expired. Wrote several systems like that. Using wireless handheld scanners, industrial pda's and barcodes to track things.

    That was back around 2001-2007 I think.

    It was funny because I actually didn't know about databases and not much about java when I did a presentation about designing the chemical system. When they decided to go in house development with me I was like oh shit, I need tonlearn this stuff...lol. Which was the starting point of where I am today as a senior java developer
    Im out, its been fun
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  7. #847

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    i was in chess club in 7th grade. buncha useless, arrogant tools except this one kid who insisted on not playing the game but rather pretending the pieces were action figures and tossing them at each other, all while making little "pew pew" and explosion noises. it was worth joining the club to watch this. let's see fisher or kasparov win with those rules.
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  8. #848
    Member Tippo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Nice . I was an equipment technician in KFab before they shut it down. Was strictly 12 inch wafers and an R&D fab so when its technology became old it was cheaper to build a bigger and more advanced fab then expand and retool KFab.

    I eventually moved out of photolithography and designed systems for equipment engineering department. Things like a chemical management system that tracked all the bottled chemicals within a fab. It was used to make sure the right chemical went into the right spot and wasn't expired. Wrote several systems like that. Using wireless handheld scanners, industrial pda's and barcodes to track things.

    That was back around 2001-2007 I think.

    It was funny because I actually didn't know about databases and not much about java when I did a presentation about designing the chemical system. When they decided to go in house development with me I was like oh shit, I need tonlearn this stuff...lol. Which was the starting point of where I am today as a senior java developer
    Very good. I was "let go" once again regarding my ego around 2000 I think. I fell into an internet company and never looked back. I did enjoy the puzzle part tho. I was very proficient regarding deviation across substrate. Long time ago tho, I'm sure they're way past these days.

  9. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I see your point, but is booksmart just the regurgitation of information? Or is it just learning from books? I mean yeah I hated those times in education where I was expected to just memorise and present what was essentially that exact information but used at 'the right time'. But information from books isn't just used in that one way, not even in education.

    You can take information from all different sources and use it to come up with something new or create a new paradigm, theory, physical invention, technical...etc....so I think it's unfair to just label 'booksmart' as the regurgitation of information when that quite clearly isn't the case.

    Application is important though and I am right behind the importance of where to apply as well as where you absorb. It's also readily apparent that there are so many different angles to intelligence that goes far beyond just academia. I personally think practical skills and applied experience, combined with genuinely learning from mistakes, is more important and useful than entirely abstract pursuits, but that is just personal.

    Also I think your post is an interesting example of someone perhaps downplaying something he doesn't feel particularly attuned to. Well I feel similarly and it's those who show us up in areas that we are weaker who make us aware of them and that's important in itself. Although I'm not great at either book or street smarts by my own esteem.

    This is perhaps a bit soppy and idealistic, but to me it would be great if we could move towards appreciation of those differences in attunement. I think that's part and parcel of typology as well and to stop us being so caught up in self-defence when we feel threatened. Certainly less snobbery in bookish areas might be nice.
    Yes, to me that's what book smart is. It means that what's read takes precedence in life. For example, when I read it goes into a holding cell to be analyzed, judged, processed, and sorted. Everything is read as a grain of salt to be tweaked and played with as I see fit according to life. Book smart people hold things from sources with a higher value then I do. These people tend to try and find books or smart people to learn from because they don't necessarily apply the filtering as the information comes in. Its more seen as fact and applied as fact instead of trying to merge it with the real world. Its not even tied to books, it may be a speaker, a video, etc.

    Edit: I guess its that book smart people try to make life fit the book instead of making the book fit life.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Funny things happen at the high end of the high IQ scale. Rather than using IQs, let me use percentiles.

    The dynamic I see, for example, in the software field, is that you have a lot of people who are very smart, who are easily smarter than 95% of the people around them. I'm not even talking about IQ tests or anything like that: just normal everyday aptitude at work.

    The problem I see is something I call "expert-itis". These really smart experts have simply never encountered anyone smarter than they are. Worse, at this high end of smarts, knowledge becomes very, very specialized. It is possible for two people to be experts in the "same field", and yet their knowledge barely overlaps. Part of the dynamic that occurs might be best represented by a Venn diagram. Two circles, each representing the sum total knowledge of each individual, each about the same size. The overlap of the two circles comprises about 10% of each individual's knowledge.

    "Expert-itis" as I name it, is the phenomenon of two such individuals meeting, and as one sees that the other person only understands 10% of one's own knowledge, one assumes that the other person is a complete idiot.

    The main reason that I see this dynamic fairly clearly is that, like you, I'm in that 150+ IQ range, easily 3 standard deviations above the norm (based on standardized tests, not IQ tests per se), around the 99.5% percentile. I routinely have people who barely understand what I do, who would quickly flunk out of the courses I took, treat me as a complete idiot, because I didn't know some dinky little detail that they consider to be all-important. Yet when push comes to shove, and we have to solve a real-life problem, I would often run into cases where I figure out the solution in 10 minutes, but I have to spend an hour or more "proving" my solution to people who haven't a clue what is going on, even though they are very (95th percentile) smart, and they think I'm an idiot because I don't know some dinky fact that they knew.

    I see this same dynamic in people trying to determine how smart each MBTI type is. We understand our own kind of smarts better than others' versions of being really smart. The INTPs think the INTJs are all idiots. The INTJs think the INTPs are all idiots. The reality is that they all have "expert-itis": they see that small section of overlapping knowledge, but they DON'T see that other 90% of knowledge that is full of things they don't know, things that they don't even know that they should ask about.

    I think that some of what you note about INTJs and myself is also part of that dynamic. I suspect you don't see the strengths in that INTJ thinking, because they aren't your strengths. You only see my strengths because I'm not merely INTJ, I'm an INTJ with a ton of education and several decades of real life experience backing it up, while a lot of these other INTJs are still just kids in college or barely out of college, still full of unrealistic expectations that were instilled by our kind of weird education system that doesn't actually teach you how to get and keep a job.

    So, are INTJs the smartest strategic thinkers? It's definitely an aptitude or talent. And it's a kind of weird one, that looks especially stupid to Ti doms. Ti doms are thinking in terms of logic and logical consequences. INTJs (and Ni doms in general) don't think like that. Instead, they have a tool that is uniquely suited to strategy: an internal library of "how things work". While the topics might be logical/technical, the thought process is not. It's more a process of pattern-matching. If the pattern matches, or at least matches closely, the INTJ just pulls out the pattern, makes a couple of adjustments to handle special real-world cases they're aware of, and then applies it. This is great for strategy because if the facts on the ground change, one doesn't have to figure out the logic all over again (the typical Ti-dom thought process), one just looks for a new match (a very fast process) and works from there. A young INTJ has a much smaller library of such patterns, so the matching is going to be much broader, more naive, more likely to not account for everything and result in mistakes. An older INTJ with significant education and much experience in a specific field will have a very fine-tuned library of patterns. Also the older INTJ will have "meta-patterns", an ability to judge how well the pattern one has just matched might apply, an ability to judge others' levels of expertise and take advantage of them, and so on.

    One of my longstanding questions about MBTI has been "what does a stupid INTJ look like?" and "what does does a smart ESFP look like?" I think I have answers for these. The stupid INTJ will still tend to score high on an IQ test, but will be kind of an idiot savant, unable to actually apply any of that knowledge in real life. The smart ESFP will be remarkably practical and high-achieving, yet not appear to be all that smart. ( Famous ESFPs - CelebrityTypes.com ) I bring this up because the real point isn't what type is smart or not, but how each type expresses its own intelligence and/or stupidity.
    After deleting my long drawn out post j decided to settle on this one...

    Being tertiary Ni I understand about playing with patterns. I play with patterns and logic all the time. I am very good at crossing patterns, flipping hem around, and tweaking them. For me its just a means to understand and play with the world though...its not a means to an end.
    Im out, its been fun

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