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Walking Tourist

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IQ tests tend to penalize creativity. Therefore creative types don't score as highly on IQ tests as more traditional thinkers.
The IQ score doesn't really say all that much about a person.
 

FDG

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IQ tests tend to penalize creativity. Therefore creative types don't score as highly on IQ tests as more traditional thinkers.
The IQ score doesn't really say all that much about a person.

What about raven's progressive matrices? They seem to require both creativity and logic.
 

nanook

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i think i just spelled out, why i feel so stupid

i don't know my IQ but ....

but my feeling of what constitutes "average" is not based on numbers of people.

i can not really get a feel for numbers of people. maybe because i don't get out much.

okay, i always knew that.

but what is it based on?

my feeling is based on the average of qualities that the world i live in is made from. or i should say: is BEING made from. i live in systems and rules designed by (but mostly not operated or applied or interpreted by) people who are or were (half of them are already dead) more intelligent than me. and somewhere - mostly invisibly to me - those systems are being improved right now - much to the dislike of those who usually apply them. i buy products (technical, nutrition and books) invented by people with more intelligence. more importantly i live in a culture, which is not-so-obviously based on the art and philosophy of great mystics. i therefore feel average or even less intelligent than average. whatever influence (as in "contribution", as in "ADDITION") i am going to have on the world: it's below or at best average in it's brilliance. this scale of quality of contribution is different from the "number of people based iQ scale", because some people don't even contribute anything at all and some people sort of "take away" from the standard (which does really have any effect on what qualities exist), so most people don't even count on this scale. and i feel rather close to them. i'm a creative and constructive mind. conforming to a standard (as in having average IQ) is a no-issue to me. contribution matters to me.

i would feel above average only if it was really hard for me to find something that i don't understand and that I wouldn't know how to improve on.

apparently i don't 'sufferer' - at least not in many respects - from that dunning-kruger-effekt, according to which many people are too stupid to realize that they are stupid. hm ... i think i do 'suffer' from it in some 'important' respects, though. shit. should not have thought about that *g*
i am not as creative as i like to think, i mostly fidle with building blocks, that were given to me. ha! doer-ship is ridiculous, from a spiritual perspective anyway. i'll just be thankful for all the brilliant toys in my consciousness.
 
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skylights

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I have a friend who is in Mensa and she's in it for the intellectual stimulation. I don't think she's "full of herself". She just enjoys the conversation with other highly intelligent people.

highly intelligent as determined by a test made by a bunch of old white guys to determine if schoolchildren do or do not need extra help.

just saying. :shrug:

good for her if she likes it, i guess. it still seems elitist to me, to decide who is smart or not based off this one test, and to make a exclusive club of it. and to think that anyone really has a monopoly on the meaning of actual intelligence.

IQ tests tend to penalize creativity. Therefore creative types don't score as highly on IQ tests as more traditional thinkers.
The IQ score doesn't really say all that much about a person.

yeah.
 

entropie

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highly intelligent as determined by a test made by a bunch of old white guys to determine if schoolchildren do or do not need extra help.

just saying. :shrug:

good for her if she likes it, i guess. it still seems elitist to me, to decide who is smart or not based off this one test, and to make a exclusive club of it. and to think that anyone really has a monopoly on the meaning of actual intelligence.



yeah.

your posts alone rank you toplevel iq'ed for me :)
 

cascadeco

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highly intelligent as determined by a test made by a bunch of old white guys to determine if schoolchildren do or do not need extra help.

just saying. :shrug:

good for her if she likes it, i guess. it still seems elitist to me, to decide who is smart or not based off this one test, and to make a exclusive club of it. and to think that anyone really has a monopoly on the meaning of actual intelligence.

Be that as it may, I don't see how it can be denied that it measures a certain TYPE of intelligence/ability/aptitude. So, all who excel at it and grasp those sorts of questions easily and naturally probably think similarly, so will have more in common as far as that goes - more commonality in terms of the type of intelligence.

I think I posted similar in this thread like... two or three years ago (lol)... but growing up, quite simply, I connected very well with those who tested along the lines I did. :shrug: Those who had lower test scores just spoke a different intellectual language, so to speak. I don't know how to make that sound any better. I don't know that it's elitist? Seems it's just another group of like-minded individuals, like everything else. You have the drama people, you have the skateboarders, you have the music crowd, you have those who are brilliant in socializing and working with people, and so on. Mensa just addresses another little niche/character trait that can be measured - of that specific sort of intelligence as defined by the tests. Some excel, others don't. Just like some excel at musical composition and are brilliant at that, and other wouldn't be able to breech that.
 

skylights

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^ sure, it just tells you you're mensa-smart.

Mensa International said:
Membership of Mensa is open to persons who have attained a score within the upper two percent of the general population on an approved intelligence test that has been properly administered and supervised.
Mensa has three stated purposes: to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity, to encourage research in the nature, characteristics and uses of intelligence, and to promote stimulating intellectual and social opportunities for its members.
Mensans have ranged in age from 2 [...]
(lol whut?)

i guess i just see it like i see most other bigotry. racism, sexism, bias against people of non-hetero orientation, etc. it's not just a group of like-minded individuals, it's an exclusionary group. the skateboarders don't tell the kid who's better at rollerblading to gtfo because he likes to skateboard, too. the drama kids sometimes suck at theater, i've seen that often enough. those who are brilliant at socializing don't come up with the "people who are good with people" club and then make you take an arbitrary test to get in.

in summary, i think it's elitist because:

a. mensa presumes to be able to measure intelligence, the nature of which is widely debated within the field of psychology
b. mensa presumes that what it is measuring is not only intelligence, but it is a good, if not the best, kind of intelligence
c. mensa excludes those who do not meet their criteria for intelligence from their interactions


it's funny because if you read the website they pretend to be so egalitarian, talking about all races and ethnicities and political opinions, but that totally overlooks the fact that they're being extremely discriminatory, and they're perpetuating intellectual bigotry, which is what bothers me most of all. how does the person who scores poorly on the intelligence test feel? what if they are highly functional, creative, compassionate, insightful, logical, or possess any other host of attributes that makes them a worthwhile person, as everybody does? mensa denies the worth of people, honestly. that's why it pisses me off. "mensa", despite its word origins, is no open table. it's completely hypocritical.

regardless, it still seems to me that the idea of intelligence as a single entity is outdated. the MBTI looks towards that, identifying 16 strengths. gardner's multiple intelligences look toward that. mensa might think it's helping people, but what good does it do the world to identify one sort of "intelligence" and define a superior class of people by it? "to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity", the mensa constitution says. what good is it doing? i read on the website that they offer scholarships to and information for gifted students, which is really great, promoting intellectual discrimination on a childhood level. they do research into intelligence. that's good. it's probably intelligence as defined by mensa, otherwise they'd be screwing over their own group, but at least it's still research i guess. still, if this intelligence is really that intelligent, why aren't they getting poor kids out of bad situations? why aren't they solving economic crises? why aren't they smoothing political relations? why aren't they easing world hunger? where is the actual benefit from this exclusive club of "smart" people? i want to see some results, for all the touted intelligence.

the whole thing reeks of racial supremacy to me.
 

entropie

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Be that as it may, I don't see how it can be denied that it measures a certain TYPE of intelligence/ability/aptitude. So, all who excel at it and grasp those sorts of questions easily and naturally probably think similarly, so will have more in common as far as that goes - more commonality in terms of the type of intelligence.

I think I posted similar in this thread like... two or three years ago (lol)... but growing up, quite simply, I connected very well with those who tested along the lines I did. :shrug: Those who had lower test scores just spoke a different intellectual language, so to speak. I don't know how to make that sound any better. I don't know that it's elitist? Seems it's just another group of like-minded individuals, like everything else. You have the drama people, you have the skateboarders, you have the music crowd, you have those who are brilliant in socializing and working with people, and so on. Mensa just addresses another little niche/character trait that can be measured - of that specific sort of intelligence as defined by the tests. Some excel, others don't. Just like some excel at musical composition and are brilliant at that, and other wouldn't be able to breech that.

Think the problem is that it puts people into categories and this is a problem for every freedom loving person. And the other sad thing is in the real world IQ tests are an entry ticket for you into the highest educations, so its not more only just a test. The basic fear behind this is that on one day we'll have a future like presented in the movie "Gattaca", when your chances to come forward in the world are your abilities directly put in numbers.

In engineering we tend to seperate between quantitative and qualitative facts of a thing. The former one are qunatifiable that means you can count and label them, the latter one, quality is not quantifiable. And I think when dealing with a human intelligence, you'll always be in the quality dimension, cause there is just no empirical fail-proof way to quantify a human being. And that being so makes life intresting for me; if we were to become only machines, I'd shoot myself.
 

cascadeco

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skylights - tbh I don't belong to mensa and don't know much about it, nor about how its members view others.

I still think though that there are just as many Elitist groups of different sorts outside of mensa-type intelligence. Sure, they may not be as formalized, but I don't really buy into the notion that people who have different definitions of what Good Music is are going to be accepted in certain music-snob groups or scenes, or that people who don't view drama or other activities in the same light/obsession are going to be truly accepted into those sorts of sub-cultures. I mean elitism and snobbery are found everywhere in ALL groups - it's not specific to intellectual circles. Mensa just gets the bad rap because it codifies things and has an actual membership selection process, and does define intelligence in a more limited spectrum. I'm not condoning the definition btw...but again it's a certain type of intelligence.. I just don't really have a problem with people who have that aspect in common, gathering together.
 

skylights

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yeah. well, nor do i, i like clubs and gatherings, it's just the exclusion that bothers me. and promoting intellectual superiority... i think that's a lot more dangerous than saying you have the best kind of music or whatever.

Mensa just gets the bad rap because it codifies things and has an actual membership selection process, and does define intelligence in a more limited spectrum.

yeah, definitely. but i think it should. it's chosen to formalize that idea, and put it into reality, and it should reap the consequences, imo.

i have some family members in mensa, they're rather elitist themselves. that's not a fair sample size, though.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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I qualified for Mensa when I was 10 or so. I didn't sign up because the club was all boys and I was awkward enough.

I have a customer who would come into my business and brag about how she is in Mensa. She thought she was better than me because of this fact and it amused me to no end to hear her bragging about something so ridiculous. Finally one day my mom said, "You know Saturned qualified for Mensa too." The chick's jaw dropped and she said "oh.... you did....?" I figured it was time to yank her chain a bit so I replied offhandly "Yeah... the Triple 9 society offered me a membership too but I thought they were a bit pretentious, ya know? So I turned them down." She said, "Oh.... uh.. yeah! Me too! I thought the same thing! Haha!" I thought, yeah right you would have turned them down... odds are, you don't even know what I am talking about.

She hasn't brought up her being in Mensa ever again. I pretty much think she is a total idiot, Mensa or no. She came in one day when we had a nature cd playing.

"Oh! You're listening to whale music.... Hmmm... sounds like a humpback whale based on my research."

I marveled at her powers of knowledge and she smirked at me. The CD? Forest song with wolf howls and birds chirping behind piano and guitar.

Mensa sure is lucky to have her.
 

guesswho

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Me neither. Probably because there weren't any.

However of all types of "clubs" and organizations I have the pretentious fucks.
 

cascadeco

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Me neither. Probably because there weren't any.

However of all types of "clubs" and organizations I have the pretentious fucks.

Yeah, this was more my point in bringing up other types of groups/interests - I don't see Mensa as being terribly unique in this respect... other than what we've already discussed, which is the formal aspect of application & entry requirements.

(But most other groups have informal hazing /weeding out/ 'entry requirements' (what is met with approval vs what doesn't fit the bill in terms of fitting in with the group... :shrug:)
 

ICUP

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haha! I never aspired to join any club or clique in school. I belong to myself. That's an elite enough grouping for my ego.

Me either. I was too busy waiting for 3:00 so I could go do dirty deeds and swim in the pool, ride bikes, etc. :) I probably participated in the least number of school activities of any of the "smart" kids..... and was one of the least intelligent of the "smart" kids. My best friend I think was ISTJ 6, and she always made better grades than I did. I graduated with like a 92 overall, and she graduated with a 95, I think. Then again, she wasn't out riding bikes and chasing men hahaha.....
 

skylights

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She hasn't brought up her being in Mensa ever again. I pretty much think she is a total idiot, Mensa or no. She came in one day when we had a nature cd playing.

"Oh! You're listening to whale music.... Hmmm... sounds like a humpback whale based on my research."

I marveled at her powers of knowledge and she smirked at me. The CD? Forest song with wolf howls and birds chirping behind piano and guitar.

Mensa sure is lucky to have her.

:rofl1:

Yeah, this was more my point in bringing up other types of groups/interests - I don't see Mensa as being terribly unique in this respect... other than what we've already discussed, which is the formal aspect of application & entry requirements.

(But most other groups have informal hazing /weeding out/ 'entry requirements' (what is met with approval vs what doesn't fit the bill in terms of fitting in with the group... :shrug:)

ehhh.

i dunno. i'm really into clubs and organizations, i've been a member of many over the years and still participate in quite a few. there are the open invitation clubs... anyone is welcome ; skill requirements, like sports (but it's generally assumed that if you practice enough, you can get in) ; and invitation-only social, like fraternities (truth there being that if you clean up nicely, behave politely, and get along well with the group, you'll probably get invited in). what i see with mensa that i don't see with most groups is (a) the test is such that you're not supposed to be able to practice to get better at it, and (b) there is disdain for those who don't get it. some clubs meet one of those two conditions but it's rare for them to meet both.
 

SpacemanSpiff

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Is it an INFP thing? I think, from what I've seen and heard so far, you guys tend to be writers more than anything, but he's also one of those types that actually pays attention to, and remembers, alot of facts, mostly cultural, historical, and trivial, but not number-oriented.

I'm very good at math, and have several INFP friends who are too.
And that about remembering facts? Lot's of us do that. It's the Tertiary Si in action.
 

entropie

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haha! That may explain why I never aspired to join any club or clique in school. I belong to myself. That's an elite enough grouping for my ego.

Haha yes ! Even I qualified for mensa, tho the test was in english. They really need to raise their standards.

Or wait, was it mensa or mesa ? :D

bm_uc_wallpaper_1024x768.jpg
 

Srho

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All the studies I've seen show that Introverted Intuitives have the highest IQs.

This is all assuming that IQ even really matters. Or depicts intelligence. Or is designed with a knowledge of what intelligence even is.
 
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