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  1. #61
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post

    I type the living crap out of folks. I use it to build predictive models of what thier most likely behavior will be and then I mold my interactions accordingly due to what I expect thier needs to be and what I need to get from them (in terms of work stuff hopefully in a nonmanipulative manner).

    Person X shows his or her hand (ass, actually),
    realizes what a manipulative dirtbag they really are,
    then back-pedals to say:
    "Hopefully in a non-manipulative manner."

    What is it with people?
    They're so untalented at reading others,
    they have to resort to artificial constructs?
    What a crock.

    I wouldn't trust you with even mowing my lawn.
    You might manipulate each blade of grass.

  2. #62
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Person X shows his or her hand (ass, actually),
    realizes what a manipulative dirtbag they really are,
    then back-pedals to say:
    "Hopefully in a non-manipulative manner."

    What is it with people?
    They're so untalented at reading others,
    they have to resort to artificial constructs?
    What a crock.

    I wouldn't trust you with even mowing my lawn.
    You might manipulate each blade of grass.
    My electric lawnmower would massage each one gently, individually out of it's delicate little root in the ground, pluck it from the top, and oh so sweetly muchify it back onto the lawn, as to find its rightful place in the world. Oh, how id love them all ,my blades of grass....

  3. #63
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Fundamental to cooperation is trust. Without trust, there can be no cooperation and without cooperation nothing would ever get done. We'd be sad robots. Maybe you already are; maybe not. No answer required.

    But gamers will devise rules, set parameters, do the maths and come up with a payoff matrix. Game theorists live in a world of anonymous agents, each rational and each expected to chose a route that will maximise a payoff. In other words, the players are predictable. There's only one snag - and it's the same snag as MBTI - people just aren't that predictable, nor willing to be manipulated or accept their role in the game; even if it means making "irrational" choices.

    I'm at a loss with some characters here at TypologyC. There is no payoff except making a few chums along the way and how far you want to take that. You could probably do better for yourself joining a dance class (as Victor has) or a book club, but hey, that involves leaving the house and connecting with people the old-fashioned way. Face to face. Conversely, if you cannot or won't connect to anyone on anything other than a win-lose basis, you will simply experience continued (albeit virtual) rejection, be treated as a troll or ignored. You may have the good fortune to attract other gamers; lucky you...

    When people play games trust is suspended, it becomes irrelevant. It needs to be irrelevant for the game to work. But what might be useful buying a house seems oddly out of place when "social networking".

    And when you subtract trust, its removes authenticity and you are procluded from making any real connections. It's part of the baggage that goes with the gaming.

    But making authentic connections is the only real payoff.

    By definition, if you play games you will never make any real connections, which is actually the point of any social networking site. If you cannot make authentic connections, then there is no point. Nada.

    So. Such games on social networking fora are not only indicative of an inability to connect socially they are - and here's the killer - symptomatic of how rubbish some characters are at game theory or MBTI.

    And the question, "Why are you here?" (which has been asked of Victor several times by simulatedworld) - rears it's head...

    Ironically, it's a question Victor is in a better position to ask. But then, he's far too polite to be that unsubtle.


  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Grain of salt?
    Wake up and smell the coffee.
    All you have to do is scan the subect lines of this board to know people take this crap seriously.

    ENTJ *uckheads
    INFP wimps
    Sensotard
    ENTP assholes

    I could go on. Really, the nonsense is astounding.
    Many of the lunes on this board treat S's as if they have 0% N,
    and N's as if they have 0% S.
    Seriously, half the time I laugh at the stupidity and the other half I just shake my head.

    I can count on one hand the individuals I deem reasonable on this board.
    Thank God they even exist.
    If this isn't real, then why are there five times as many posts in the N communities than the S communities? FIVE TIMES MOAR. That denotes to me a serious difference in the expression of N and S personality types. Not only that, but many NTs are deeply annoyed by the emotionality of NFs - which is very real. I'm an introvert and extroverts can make me feel drained. Of course you can't peg people and stereotype them by their type, but there's obviously truth to it, and it's much more accurate than astrology which is based on planetary position at time of birth rather than observable personality traits o_O. Also, anybody who knows anything about MBTI know that some people are closer to the borderline than others. Some Is are on the border of E, but some Is are extremely introverted. Same for sensing/intuition, thinking/feeling, judging/perceiving, which is why some formats of the test offer percentages. I agree that the heavy stereotypes can be damaging, but that doesn't mean that it isn't valid as a guideline.

  5. #65
    Member lbloom's Avatar
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    Pretty much everybody uses some tool to optimize their interfacing experience. Observed individual behavior, gut/instinct/intuition, a whole blooming book about patterns and structures.

    Some people need the book.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post

    And the question, "Why are you here?" (which has been asked of Victor several times by simulatedworld) - rears it's head...

    Ironically, it's a question Victor is in a better position to ask. But then, he's far too polite to be that unsubtle.
    I know why Victor is here. That's why I smile reading his comments.
    So would anyone where insight into others is like breathing.
    I find him refreshingly relentless and multifaceted.
    No one would ever call him boring.

    Now simulated world is a snorkeler.
    Swims on top of the water.
    Not exactly multifaceted or unique.

    People come to forums for multitudinous reasons.
    Some might be here for reasons you can't fathom.

  7. #67
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Did it make you feel better to have an emotional meltdown in public?
    You'd really suck at playing poker.
    Yes, it did make me feel better. You--whoever you are--suck as strategy. You made me and you are fueling me ego. If this house of cards comes crashing down it will be your fault. You will have to submit your resignation.

    I don't see why it has to be like this. But if you insist ...

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    But gamers will devise rules, set parameters, do the maths and come up with a payoff matrix. Game theorists live in a world of anonymous agents, each rational and each expected to chose a route that will maximise a payoff. In other words, the players are predictable. There's only one snag - and it's the same snag as MBTI - people just aren't that predictable, nor willing to be manipulated or accept their role in the game; even if it means making "irrational" choices.
    True. I am a "gamer". I do try to manipulate every blade of grass. It's all I know. If I knew how to make friend, I would. That's not my strength.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Of course you can't peg people and stereotype them by their type,
    Sure you can, it's done here every day. Lol. That was my point.

    Also, anybody who knows anything about MBTI know that some people are closer to the borderline than others.
    I've made that point repeatedly in other threads.

    Person #1 49%S 51% N
    Person #2 0% S 100% N

    Both of these can get a result of ENTJ
    They do not belong in the same group.

  9. #69
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You're a mental snorkeler.
    I'm a mental scuba diver.

    Two different approaches.
    Neither is right or wrong.
    Interesting metaphor.

    I see where you're coming from--you're more interested in the full-on deeply personal explanations and motivations for the behaviors. If you want that, go to med school and become a psychiatrist, because you certainly won't get it from MBTI or any similar pop-psychology system. Though some people around here will insist that they can pinpoint exact Jungian functional observations in your subjective experience, I try to avoid taking them too seriously as much as I can.

    I would assume that anyone who understands the inherent limitations upon such grouping systems would grasp this obvious caveat--but you're right, lots of people still miss it.

    Ironically, the problem is that they want Sensing accuracy from an iNtuitive system. When you take a statement directed as a general observation at an entire group, and misinterpret it by applying it as a specific critique to every individual in that group, you've missed the point. You're arguing that we can't call it an oak forest because it contains a couple of pine trees--the Sensing perspective is not as interested in anything that can't be of immediate and practical use in the real world, so it doesn't care if we can make a statement about what should theoretically happen on average over time.

    From the Sensing perspective, if you can't reliably give concrete information about the reality of what is happening this time, your information is irrelevant--we don't get to repeat events until luck averages out, so who needs the theory about what will probably happen on average?

    The advantage of a Sensing perspective, of course, is that its superior connection with the reality of the present allows it to examine the details of that particular tree or this particular instance with a higher degree of precision--I believe this is related to the "mental scuba diving" that you refer to.

    Indeed, iNtuitive types tend to prefer "mental snorkeling" in the form of generalized and far-reaching explanations--just give me the gist so I can connect it to something else; I don't need to know all the details. This perspective sacrifices attention to detail and exact knowledge in order to gain a greater awareness of broader context, patterns and relationships.

    Obviously each has its relative strengths and weaknesses, and clearly everyone uses both perspectives quite often. It should make perfect sense why N types are more often attracted to MBTI--it gives them a broad, abstract summary from which to conceptualize others, and the finer details are beside the point.

    We must be careful not to expect S-quality specific accuracy from an N system (and similarly, not to expect N-quality summation from an S system.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #70
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Fundamental to cooperation is trust. Without trust, there can be no cooperation and without cooperation nothing would ever get done. We'd be sad robots. Maybe you already are; maybe not. No answer required.

    But gamers will devise rules, set parameters, do the maths and come up with a payoff matrix. Game theorists live in a world of anonymous agents, each rational and each expected to chose a route that will maximise a payoff. In other words, the players are predictable. There's only one snag - and it's the same snag as MBTI - people just aren't that predictable, nor willing to be manipulated or accept their role in the game; even if it means making "irrational" choices.

    I'm at a loss with some characters here at TypologyC. There is no payoff except making a few chums along the way and how far you want to take that. You could probably do better for yourself joining a dance class (as Victor has) or a book club, but hey, that involves leaving the house and connecting with people the old-fashioned way. Face to face. Conversely, if you cannot or won't connect to anyone on anything other than a win-lose basis, you will simply experience continued (albeit virtual) rejection, be treated as a troll or ignored. You may have the good fortune to attract other gamers; lucky you...

    When people play games trust is suspended, it becomes irrelevant. It needs to be irrelevant for the game to work. But what might be useful buying a house seems oddly out of place when "social networking".

    And when you subtract trust, its removes authenticity and you are procluded from making any real connections. It's part of the baggage that goes with the gaming.

    But making authentic connections is the only real payoff.

    By definition, if you play games you will never make any real connections, which is actually the point of any social networking site. If you cannot make authentic connections, then there is no point. Nada.

    So. Such games on social networking fora are not only indicative of an inability to connect socially they are - and here's the killer - symptomatic of how rubbish some characters are at game theory or MBTI.

    And the question, "Why are you here?" (which has been asked of Victor several times by simulatedworld) - rears it's head...

    Ironically, it's a question Victor is in a better position to ask. But then, he's far too polite to be that unsubtle.


    Pretty interesting theory. I've actually developed a few personal connections on this forum through mutual interest in game-playing and used this common interest to develop more personal connections. The common interest in competition gives way to trust enough to produce relationships where game-players feel comfortable being genuine with each other.

    Of course, the internet isn't really my primary place for developing personal connections, so why should I care if it doesn't work out?

    That's really the point here, BT. You seem to think using the forum for game-playing must be symptomatic of lack of real personal connections, but I don't see it that way--I use the games played here in order to better understand what will and won't work well with real people. Not for the purpose of manipulating them so much as for the ability to better identify with the value systems and mindsets from which others construct their worldviews.

    Surprisingly, in the process, I've actually become a more tolerant and understanding person--though I do still enjoy firing off a good rant. Helps with stress sometimes. ^_^

    In other words, I don't need to develop genuine connections with many people here--I have this thing called real life for that. I'm sure you know all about my personal life though, just like everyone else on the forum with way too much confidence in his personal hunches about the motivations of others.

    But if it's easier for you to rationalize my behavior by labeling it a cry for help and imagining that I have no legitimate emotional connections to people in my real life, knock yourself out.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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