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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I have loved such people and 'tried' to be a source of support. But i never offered the basic suggestions to help clarify their thinking. For example, this person from my past believed all the problems would be fixed if they simply had someone to love. Because they saw the responsibility for their happiness as resting on another person, they would sabotage social interactions by obviously placing way too much emotional pressure immediately. People would tend to run. It was a horrible catch-22. This person was admirable and worthwhile, but their insistence on self-destruction and that help could only come from a lover gave them a power card i don't think they even were aware they were playing.

    It's tragic, and important. I have no idea how to negotiate through this type of minefield. I've had to try and i come out with a lot of guilt, confusion, regret, and yet no clear idea of what i 'should' have done.

    Anyone share this type of experience and have success?
    I grew up with a co-dependant, depressive and suicidal ENFJ mother. I didn't have much success dealing with her until I reached adulthood. Children usually don't argue with parental suicide threats, in my case, fear would usually paralyze me and my best argument would be something silly like "please, don't kill yourself". I don't socialize with her much today and when I do, I tend to keep an emotional distance. She's told me many times that my rare visits and distance hurts her, to which I usually just reply that I'm busy with work and that I don't crave the same kind of emotional intimachy she does. The last part is the reason why she often describes me as cold and hard. No doubt that it is how she often perceives me but at the same time, it's also a pretty cheap trick to make me feel guilty and neatless to say, guilt in the hands of a codependant ENFJ is a dangerous weapon.

    She'll never change, her depressions combined with her co-dependance, manipulative nature and a poor ability to apply logic to personal problems makes any attempt to help her pointless.
    Verbal IQ Test

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    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteraven View Post
    I guess I should have said "kind" instead of "type" around here. I was more asking if the lashing out type of suicidal person actually succeeds or the silent, slip away and do it person does. I guess I was wondering if what digest found was true. Of the two people who were related to me who succeeded, I don't think anyone knew for one, but he had many other issues, and the other had attempted many times, but the family still thinks she was just attempting to get help and not to really die, but this time no one got to her on time. I guess part of me wants to know how much to worry.
    I don't think I have ever see statistics on the sort of criteria you describe, WR.

    In general, if an adult (i.e., someone with resources to control their environment) truly wants to kill themselves, they can take the necessary steps to make sure it happens. Even if someone just takes pills, they can get in their car and drive to an isolated location and take the pills there, so no one can find them in time. Or they can use a more violent method (as men often do) to ensure that they cannot be stopped.

    People who use a passive method in a highly traveled/frequented area seem to be at least partly hoping that someone finds them or stops them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I grew up with a co-dependant, depressive and suicidal ENFJ mother. I didn't have much success dealing with her until I reached adulthood. Children usually don't argue with parental suicide threats, in my case, fear would usually paralyze me and my best argument would be something silly like "please, don't kill yourself".
    My alcoholic father did the same thing. Now I see it for what it was: Pure vintage emotional manipulation. He needed the reassurance he was still loved, so he'd threaten himself to see if his wife or children cared enough to beg him not to do it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    When I was feeling what I would now probably consider suicidal I did not tell anyone, even my psychiatrist. I had no intention of killing myself, I just felt like I wanted to. I had (unsummoned) fantasies about doing it but never made plans to. It was sort of along the lines of what Jennifer has described. I did not want to die. I wanted the pain to stop and at that point in my life, death seemed like the only way for that to happen.

    When things in my external world became better, my suicidal feelings faded away. Now when I feel I'm headed that way I am able to divert my mind from that path. I was not able to do that when I was in bad shape.

    If I'd been thinking clearly, I might have mentioned it to someone. My mother shot herself in the chest when she was nineteen, but lived and my great-grandfather drank Lysol and died. I just didn't want the drama. I was too ashamed and I had no one to care for my kids if they decided to put me in something residential.

    I don't know what this has to do with the OP, though.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #14
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    I think that it points out that not everyone who is suicidal is using it to control others' emotions. I know when I was, I didn't want anyone to know. I wanted to figure out what it was that was causing it and take care of it all on my own. I made a big mess of it, as I was not very rational at the time and could have probably used some outside help. I still see that some do use it to get attention, to get others to help them, or as a form of control, but just as with almost, if not every, other human behaviour, the motivations for them are as varied as the people exhibiting them.

    Oh, and I had seen way back when I had my second MBTI done in a text of stats for type that I was the only preference that was definitively linked to depression (i.e. increased probability over E). That was around 10 years ago now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If I'd been thinking clearly, I might have mentioned it to someone. My mother shot herself in the chest when she was nineteen, but lived and my great-grandfather drank Lysol and died.
    !!!

    I'm so sorry, that's awful. And it is a legacy that you do not need to be a part of. I'm glad that things have gotten better enough for you overall that you are able to deal with the feelings now. When I am feeling stronger, I do the same diversion technique; when I'm out of energy, it is harder.

    As far as the OP goes, I haven't had a lot of experience with working through a potential suicide. There is always a tendency to err on the side of caution... because obviously you so do not want to err on the OTHER side.

    At the same time, it doesn't help to cater to the manipulative side of things. All I can think of is to be willing to invest yourself heavily in the other person, to correct the distortion in their thinking that is leading them towards these sort of bids for attention. This can take a long while, if they are not even consciously aware of what they are doing. (So for example if they are looking towards others to provide them value in life, somehow that burden has to be shifted and they need to find value elsewhere... but these sorts of changes take a long time to occur, unless there is some cataclysmic event.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    !!!

    I'm so sorry, that's awful. And it is a legacy that you do not need to be a part of. I'm glad that things have gotten better enough for you overall that you are able to deal with the feelings now. When I am feeling stronger, I do the same diversion technique; when I'm out of energy, it is harder.
    Exactly and it gets to be a self-perpetuation cycle that leaves you powerless to so much as address the factors that contribute to it. That's what makes death so very appealing. I am not glad I had to be where I was but I am glad that being there gave me more understanding of where one's mind can go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As far as the OP goes, I haven't had a lot of experience with working through a potential suicide. There is always a tendency to err on the side of caution... because obviously you so do not want to err on the OTHER side.

    At the same time, it doesn't help to cater to the manipulative side of things. All I can think of is to be willing to invest yourself heavily in the other person, to correct the distortion in their thinking that is leading them towards these sort of bids for attention. This can take a long while, if they are not even consciously aware of what they are doing. (So for example if they are looking towards others to provide them value in life, somehow that burden has to be shifted and they need to find value elsewhere... but these sorts of changes take a long time to occur, unless there is some cataclysmic event.)
    When it's a manipulative thing, which I haven't dealt with recently, but did have someone go there when I was a young adult. She's still alive AFAIK. I don't have a lot of patience with it. Emotional manipulation ticks me off to the point where I might be tempted to help them carry out their threat. If they are going to keep screwing with me like that, then I'm going to see to it that they wind up in a locked room with no shoe laces.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #17
    Senior Member Rohsiph's Avatar
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    If not for witnessing, albeit somewhat loosely (in the case of an extended family member), the consequences of suicide, I wonder if my own occasional depression would have led me to an attempt.

    I think I identify with what Jennifer and cafe describe, as, particularly in moments of doubt, I will find my thoughts slowly shrugging up with suicide, yet it is not as much a desire as I think it is trying to search for other answers.

    Were I to be manipulated by someone "threatening" to kill his/herself, I think myself likely to encourage them along the lines of "if you manage to kill yourself, good riddance--you weren't worth my time anyways." This happened once (that is, I responded like this), and the former friend did not kill herself, but rather ran off to cry on other friends' shoulders. And, indeed, I thought "good riddance."

  8. #18
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    - Suicide is killing a person your loved ones holds dear.
    - Suicide threats is threatening to kill a person your loved ones hold dear.
    - Suicidal thoughts is playing with the idea of killing a person your loved ones hold dear.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteraven View Post
    Oh, and I had seen way back when I had my second MBTI done in a text of stats for type that I was the only preference that was definitively linked to depression (i.e. increased probability over E). That was around 10 years ago now.
    If I remember correctly, the two major factors are I and neuroticism, both reasoned to be contributors because I's have less positive emotions and high neurotics have more negative emotions (well, emotional priming, if you will).

    I vaguely remember there being a connection to indirect effects, such as T being related to social bonding, which also affects depression... and N being correlated with intelligent/unstable factors, which somewhat relates to depression.

    (Very iffy on this though... the only time I read about it is after my cousin killed himself, essentially randomly, at what should of been the high of his life. Long time ago now.)

  10. #20
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    When someone is suicidal, this gives them an immediate power card over everyone who cares about them. I spent many years alongside someone who was suicidal and because of this, everyone immediately catered to this person in a desperate attempt to quell off this severe depression. Their feelings were of greater value than everyone around them because they were in a state of emergency. There was an underlying fear to ever offer criticism, get into just a regular spat, constant fear if they withdrew they had done themselves in. People constantly pleaded to consider some more positive alternatives to thinking, reminding them they always have someone to turn to, etc. Being in a clinical depression, this person would throw off every attempt at help as useless and wasn't inclined towards medical help either.

    I have loved such people and 'tried' to be a source of support. But i never offered the basic suggestions to help clarify their thinking. For example, this person from my past believed all the problems would be fixed if they simply had someone to love. Because they saw the responsibility for their happiness as resting on another person, they would sabotage social interactions by obviously placing way too much emotional pressure immediately. People would tend to run. It was a horrible catch-22. This person was admirable and worthwhile, but their insistence on self-destruction and that help could only come from a lover gave them a power card i don't think they even were aware they were playing.

    It's tragic, and important. I have no idea how to negotiate through this type of minefield. I've had to try and i come out with a lot of guilt, confusion, regret, and yet no clear idea of what i 'should' have done.

    Anyone share this type of experience and have success?
    The problem with some people is that they lean on you, the more you take the more they lean.

    I've grown to lack any tolerance for these sorts of people, its better that they fall early and learn to pick themselves up and take the fight forward in life. Only they can improve themselves and worse still is that the longer you prop them up the more that comes crashing down.

    The only thing that you can do (from my own experience with someone) is to provide them with stimulus or diversionary type things that can point them in the right direction (Self esteem etc) and provide a helping hand. But absolutely no leaning and consistency amongst all those that know the person (so they don't go looking for help).

    One thing to absolutely make sure is that they are not doing drugs...and removing them from other connections that can take them down as well.

    It’s a pity, but once a flatmates brother was in this sort of situation and I spent quite a lot of time with him to help him through, he was just down on his luck. I motivated him and he got a job, got a flat and was doing ok. I though he was ok, after moving away for a few years I found out he'd died... his loser mates had got to him and he'd gone off the rails, died whilst jumping over a wall because he didn't have the money to pay the cab fare.

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