User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 14

  1. #1
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default Involuntary psycological absorbtion

    I've been examining the way people perceive reality, and I've noticed an element that is extremely uncomfortable for me as a J.

    Every idea or experience we are exposed to, regardless of how unusual, typical, rational, unreasonable, fitting, or unfitting it is, has a non-negligible degree of control over us, regardless of whether we reject it or embrace it.

    Simply becoming aware of something is to acknowledge it's existence, and in that acknowledgment, that thing becomes a part of you. If you embrace it, you simply act according to it, and thus incorporate the mechanism into your self-image. This is pretty straightforward. If you reject it, you merely dissociate it from your ego, and it still becomes a part of yourself you project in a negative way onto the world around you, seeing it in others when they show things you've associated with the thing you rejected... when in reality, what you're seeing is the part of yourself that has incorporated what you didn't want.

    In fact, the person you projected it onto may well have been unaware of the idea you attributed to them until they became aware that you thought they possessed that quality (which they are likely to infer or find out in some way even if you don't tell them directly), and then you effectively "spread" the idea to them, and what you rejected becomes a part of them as well. So regardless of what you choose, everything you're exposed to becomes a part of you, and you involuntarily spread it to everyone you come into contact with.

    Basically, you could say that human beings are something like FCC Class B devices... they must accept all interference received, including interference that causes undesired operation.

    To me, this indicates that human beings actually have very little free will. We essentially have freedom to decide certain things about the structure of our ego. Everything else is pretty much an involuntary process, and the rest of our psychological development is at the mercy of our environment and the people around us.

    This is why there are so many ideas floating around that almost no one likes, agrees with, or considers valid if asked directly, but almost everyone sees in and fears from other people.

    So, what do you think of this?

  2. #2
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    5x/o
    Posts
    1,271

    Default

    What's wrong with that?

    To have meaning, we must feel that we can affect our environments... To believe that we have this power- we must also believe the environment has an affect on us. No man is an island.

    Sorry that's not very deep, but that's what it is. We're all ripples. I don't think everyone fears ideas they disagree with. To hide from these ideas... how can you fight the unknown- how can you make decisions if you choose to be ignorant?

  3. #3
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    What's wrong with that?

    To have meaning, we must feel that we can affect our environments... To believe that we have this power- we must also believe the environment has an affect on us. No man is an island.
    Perhaps there isn't anything wrong with it. Although there are several things that have passed through my environment that I fear have changed my being for the worse, away from what I would value and promote if I hadn't been changed in this way, and that there's nothing I can do about it. In other words, I fear that the world turns us all into monsters that just get worse and worse over time as we indiscriminately absorb what's around us regardless of its nature. Well, morality itself might be artificial, come to think of it. So the real fear might be that everything about us is constantly modified without our consent, and thus any stability we see in ourselves is illusory. And that fear probably stems from our mind's tendency to want to create a clear picture of ourselves and our reality, which it relies on being able to find order in it to be able to do.

    Also, what this means is that we do not really affect our environments. We just rationalize that we do affect our environments (because it appears so in the short-term), when it's actually our environments that affect us (if you examine it from the long-term). Even the effects we do have on the environment were influenced by the environment. Basically, it could mean that our environment is in charge, and we're just along for the ride. Ironically, my having any qualm with this state of affairs might well itself be a result of the ideas I've absorbed and accepted. Mainly the illusion long accepted, that I have more control than I actually do. Along with several ideas Americans have about independence and choice.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Ironically, my having any qualm with this state of affairs might well itself be a result of the ideas I've absorbed and accepted. Mainly the illusion long accepted, that I have more control than I actually do. Along with several ideas Americans have about independence and choice.
    I think you're on to something here. Speaking only for myself, having grown up with an enormous sense of entitlement in a permissive household (no idea how you arrived at the point you're at) left me with an overinflated sense of my own power over my circumstances. Also, probably more importantly, the same sense of my own power over myself.

    It took a long and uncomfortable interior purge combined with some awful life circumstances (of my own creation) to escape from this mentality, but I found that accepting my place in the scheme of things granted me a sense of freedom and ease that constantly trying to control everything I'm certain would have never allowed me.

    And anyway, I sucked at it.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    ENTj
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    417

    Default

    First I have to say, I think you're really on to something. Good observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    What's wrong with that?
    All I think think this really means is that we have little free will. We can only act on what we have sensed and interpretations of those things. We can only choose to accept or reject what we have come into contact with. There is no originality, as nothing can be created. We can only mix and match things in which we have come into contact with.

    I would argue that we can't choose at all, and we actually have no free will what so ever. The factor of decision is based entirely on instinctive and learned values.
    ENTJ LIE
    3w4 sp/sx
    3w4(4w5)-5w6(6w7)-9w8(1w9)

  6. #6
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    You could spin this around a hundred different ways and drive yourself crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian
    Simply becoming aware of something is to acknowledge it's existence, and in that acknowledgment, that thing becomes a part of you.
    Only if you have weak ego boundaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    ENTj
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Only if you have weak ego boundaries.
    It has nothing to do with weak ego boundaries.
    It becomes part of you in that you integrate with it or you reject it. Either way it changes your character even if it is a negligible amount.
    ENTJ LIE
    3w4 sp/sx
    3w4(4w5)-5w6(6w7)-9w8(1w9)

  8. #8
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lett View Post
    I think you're on to something here. Speaking only for myself, having grown up with an enormous sense of entitlement in a permissive household (no idea how you arrived at the point you're at) left me with an overinflated sense of my own power over my circumstances. Also, probably more importantly, the same sense of my own power over myself.
    You're rather perceptive to see that in what I wrote. I think I might have grown up in a similar situation. It might have been exacerbated by my tendency to insist on doing all the work on group projects myself in order to avoid letting people I didn't trust have any influence on my grade. Not to mention my insistence on holding myself apart from what other people were doing, and insisting on following what I thought was best rather than allowing myself to be a part of anything (which I came to see as a weakness).

    Eventually, I rejected so many things, that the whole world came to seem like a worthless cesspool filled with pathetic, annoying creatures. With me as the only civilized, sane person in it. In reality, I was just being extremely selective about what could be a part of my ego. I suppose that's how I got where I am today... terrified, hiding in something like an ivory tower, with all connections to other people severed, with nothing but my pride, my rationalizations for rejecting and hurting everyone else, and my accumulated insights.

    And the worst part is... I'm still doing all of this. Because I don't know how to stop. :blushing: It's the only world I've ever known, and I've only recently become vaguely aware that there's another.
    It took a long and uncomfortable interior purge combined with some awful life circumstances (of my own creation) to escape from this mentality, but I found that accepting my place in the scheme of things granted me a sense of freedom and ease that constantly trying to control everything I'm certain would have never allowed me.

    And anyway, I sucked at it.
    Sounds like a difficult process... I hope I can find a way out. I'm a Judging type, and I might not be able to get out. It could be too late for me, considering the extent to which I've adapted my mentality to this kind of life. But I suppose it's either that, or settle for distracting myself with the Internet for the rest of my life.

    Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I'm glad that what I wrote made sense to someone this time. It doesn't always.

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8

    Default

    I could have written everything you just did and it would all be 100% true. I think it probably would be for a lot of people.

    It has been helpful for me to think of it as primarily a fear of making external, rather than internal, mistakes. The chance that I could destroy my carefully built construct if I revealed a weakness or otherwise embarrassed myself.

    Really the most helpful thing was just going out and making some utterly giant and very public (at least to those that know me) mistakes for the first time in my life over the course of the last few years. Having the whole edifice fall down on my head allowed me to see the sky for the first time, if you'll forgive the poetry.

    So, maybe... trading a total acceptance and rationalization of my interior life at the expense of interacting with the world for the internal permission to accept some imperfections and have those be visible to others, and ultimately myself. (christ sake what an awful sentence)

    I guess what I'm trying to say in an overlong way is that it can help to f*ck up.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    entp
    Posts
    1,190

    Default

    if anything, it proves that free will does exists. you are not excercising it properly or for long enough

    when your charging a battery, the green light needs to come on before you can use it to its full potential, dont it...why do you expect to apply your concept of free will and assume it will work on the first try

Similar Threads

  1. [ISTJ] Involuntary Full Self-Awareness
    By ArbiterDewey in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-23-2008, 04:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO