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  1. #21
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I think it's common for ENTPs to feel depersonalized. In fact, I would guess that anxiety and depersonalization helps them watch the world run and link it up, which might be why they later get classified as NeTi, hence ENTP.
    I totally agree with that, but I was referring more to the way you express yourself - at least in that particular post. The phrasing...

  2. #22
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin
    those who fear rejection the most are the ones who get rejected the most. A self-fulfilling prophecy.
    Yup. People believe the hype.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I'm not sure I have a fear of rejection, even though someone observing my behavior would probably say that I do. I think I have a fear of acceptance, as odd as that sounds. I like being able to hold people at arm's length, and if I ever really connected with someone and built a relationship, I would no longer be able to be an island.

    Fear of acceptance and fear of rejection would probably both manifest the same way - withholding feelings, being wary of opening up, shutting down at the drop of a hat.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #23
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    I think being able to feel the pain of rejection is important.

    We all tend to avoid pain - we blame the other person - we even blame ourselves - or we try to rationalise away the pain.

    This is understandable as when we were little and dependent, rejection was a threat to our survival.

    But now we are big, emotional rejection is not a threat to our survival, it is merely painful.

    And indeed, how we handle rejection is a good test of character.

    A person of good character wishes to remain in touch with all their feelings, even painful feelings.

    And the benefit if having a good character is that you are in touch with all your feelings - the pleasurable feelings as well as the painful feelings.

    Of course a person of bad character only wishes to be in touch with their good feelings - essentially they want to be a good child so that their parents will look after them - but in denying their bad feelings, they also lose touch with their pleasurable feelings.

    And this is the touchstone of narcissism.

    The narcissists can't bear the pain and pleasure of being in touch with another person. So the narcissists are entirely self referential - though they don't recognise this themselves.

    But experiencing the pain of rejection will eventually return us to the pleasure of acceptance.

  4. #24
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I think being able to feel the pain of rejection is important.

    We all tend to avoid pain - we blame the other person - we even blame ourselves - or we try to rationalise away the pain.

    This is understandable as when we were little and dependent, rejection was a threat to our survival.

    But now we are big, emotional rejection is not a threat to our survival, it is merely painful.

    And indeed, how we handle rejection is a good test of character.

    A person of good character wishes to remain in touch with all their feelings, even painful feelings.

    And the benefit if having a good character is that you are in touch with all your feelings - the pleasurable feelings as well as the painful feelings.

    Of course a person of bad character only wishes to be in touch with their good feelings - essentially they want to be a good child so that their parents will look after them - but in denying their bad feelings, they also lose touch with their pleasurable feelings.
    And this is the touchstone of narcissism.

    The narcissists can't bear the pain and pleasure of being in touch with another person. So the narcissists are entirely self referential - though they don't recognise this themselves.

    But experiencing the pain of rejection will eventually return us to the pleasure of acceptance.
    perhaps it is not that they deny the feelings but that they place a block/defese in place to prevent the bad feelings thus preventing the good feelings as well? The feelings are just not there. Also The idea of rejection as being an early survival mechanism is really fascinating. Haven't thought from that perspective.

    If I am prepared for rejection than I function in mode that is maximum defense and I do not ever feel rejected or hurt. I dont feel. I can walk in a room with an angry mob and not care a bit. I do not care what others think of me in this mode.

    If I am open and honest and unprepared for rejection it is like being stabbed through my soul and can hurt very much. I am way, way too sensitive to rejection in this state.

    However there is value in Victor's point concening opening yourself to the rejection I think, and sufferring that pain.

  5. #25
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    However there is value in Victor's point concening opening yourself to the rejection I think, and sufferring that pain.
    If the aim is a genuine relationship with another person, it is important to realise that pain and pleasure are part of the relationship.

    In other words, the relationship is more important than the feelings of pain and pleasure.

    At the same time, a relationship depends on our being able to feel our own pain and pleasure as well as the pain and pleasure of the the other.

    If we try to short circuit this by avoiding emotional pain, we sell ourselves short, and of course the other person.

    And with true poetic justice, if we avoid the pain, we will avoid the pleasure as well.

  6. #26
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    I always thought my problem was fear of intimacy rather than fear of rejection, but coming to think of it maybe my fear of intimacy is a symptom of having a fear of rejection.

    I don't really have a problem with rejection per se in terms of say romantic relationships. My problem is I fear getting close to people emotionally and intellectually. It partly stems from the fact my parents were emotionally neglectful at times and my interaction with the first girl I truly loved. Who I seemed to have rejected at least twice, the first time because of fear of rejection as I had low self esteem at the time and the second time as I had various personal problems.

    So these days I am more or less a recluse as I worry I may get hurt by people, just like I felt in my childhood at times from my parents. Or I might accidentally hurt someone else, like I seemed to have done to that girl who I only let go as I loved her so much that I did not want to burden her with my problems. Despite the fact ever since I been trying to explain my behaviour and apologise to her, she now tends to just run away from me these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  7. #27
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    emotional rejection is not a threat to our survival, it is merely painful.
    Yup. Don't know why you have to bring good vs. bad and your usual judging mindset into it tho...
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So the narcissists are entirely self referential - though they don't recognise this themselves.
    Ha!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    I always thought my problem was fear of intimacy rather than fear of rejection, but coming to think of it maybe my fear of intimacy is a symptom of having a fear of rejection.
    It's not the same thing. Fear of intimacy is tied up with fear of losing autonomy, of losing identity, of shutting off other options, of being exposed.
    Fear of rejection is more primitive, as Victor has suggested, it stems from a survival mechanism. You can outthink it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Don't know why you have to bring good vs. bad and your usual judging mindset into it tho...
    Well, my dear old Bluemonday, a good life is based on good judgement.

    But take a tip from me, ol' Blue, when they don't like the judgement you make, they call it judgemental.

    So to call someone judgemental is simply emotional blackmail.

    It is no more than calling the judge, mental.

    It is simply an insult.

  9. #29
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I'm not sure I have a fear of rejection, even though someone observing my behavior would probably say that I do. I think I have a fear of acceptance, as odd as that sounds. I like being able to hold people at arm's length, and if I ever really connected with someone and built a relationship, I would no longer be able to be an island.

    Fear of acceptance and fear of rejection would probably both manifest the same way - withholding feelings, being wary of opening up, shutting down at the drop of a hat.
    Very interesting, I can't figure out what that would be like. I understand wanting freedom and not feeling tied down and obligated but I'd guess that's different to a fear of acceptance. Can you elaborate?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Ultimately the NT is not afraid of the rejection of the other person.
    Guilt is not found in the other. It is a home base.
    Absolutely. That's what it is for me anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I think being able to feel the pain of rejection is important.
    But what about the unrealised fear? Actual rejection is quite different to an irrational fear.

  10. #30
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Fear of rejection is more primitive, as Victor has suggested, it stems from a survival mechanism. You can outthink it.
    You can also just feel the fear.

    No emotion lasts forever, so if you allow yourself to feel it, it will transform into another feeling.

    But if you block it, it will be continually trying to express itself, and so not give any other feeling a chance.

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