Socially Palatable

[Nocapszy]

I think I've made this thread before but I can't be bothered to look it up and I don't remember anything I might use for a keyword. Anyway, I've given it some more thought so it's time to reopen the subject.

I've noticed a few things which were, in the original sense to which I was accustomed, inherently negative traits but these are things which are, apparently, socially palatable.

Probably the most common example is "ADD."
I won't get into what a joke ADHD is right now -- that's not the focus here.

I'm just wondering why so many people say about themselves that they're afflicted by ADHD, in such a bragging tone.
I know the superficial reason -- it's "cool" to have ADD.
It is. I told people I had ADD, and all of a sudden I had people around me talking about ADD and telling stories 'proving' their ADHDdom as though it were some kind of an achievement. I compare this actually to nationalism -- being proud of something that you are and can't change, rather than something you've achieved.

I, though, had the ultimate trophy -- a legitimate doctor's note indicating that I was officially diseased and disorderly.
I was the cool shit in high school as long as anyone was talking or thinking about ADHD.

I couldn't understand it.

What is so cool about having a problem?

At first I wondered whether it was just something to blame for failure. That's what I thought back then. I figured that it wasn't that they thought I was cool, only that they envied me: That they were jealous and hoped it was contagious.

But there was a whole other clique of students who were (as it seemed) deliberate failures. In actuality, they just didn't care much about school, as long as they could get their rocks off or get it on the rocks. And they could. These were kids who didn't see their academic shortcomings as problems, and therefore had no problems to blame ADHD on.

But yet, they still claimed to have it.

So then, from there I figured that it was indeed a Socially Palatable aspect of personality.

Without diverting your attention too far, does it not seem as though this culture is fucked? That is, as soon as these eighth grade alcoholics and tenth grade adderall burnouts become magistrates and engineers, the sky will turn brown like the shit going into and coming out of the American public schools.


Anyway, I'll move on to another example.

Actually, I won't. I'd say the principle is pretty well lain out, so I'll move right into my questions:

How did this happen?
When did it happen? Were generations prior to this one in this habit?

 

[Ivy]

Kids have always been fuckups. It has always been cool to be against the grain or "bad" in some not-that-bad way. They grow out of it for the most part. I don't think our culture is fucked.

Incidentally, I've got ADD (inattentive type, no H) myself. I wouldn't say I'm exactly proud of it, but I don't consider it altogether a "problem." Only insofar as the traits that are described by an ADD diagnosis do not mesh with many traits that are culturally rewarded. Other traits that seem to go hand in hand with ADD are traits I highly value in myself. (I guess that is a kind of pride.) It has caused some problems for me since people tend to expect organization/timeliness/other stuff I am bad at, but it's not that hard to build safety nets so I can function.

 

[Nocapszy]

I meant to mention that it didn't end after I left high school.
"Healthy," "mature" adults do this.

I'll grant it's not quite as frequent, but that's probably just because it's just not as prevalent a concept.

 

[Ivy]

The human brain doesn't finish growing until the mid twenties.

 

[Nocapszy]

Many people also have lint in their pockets.

Have you got a point?

 

[Ivy]

Yes. That since you left high school you are still basically interacting with kids. Most of them will grow out of this.

 

[Nocapszy]

That almost sounds like you're trying to console me.
Does this thread sound belligerent? Or like I'm complaining?

Maybe it's just environmental, but I've seen it in people older than 25.
Not that I think the cutoff would be mid twenties anyway.

To my knowledge, values and physical development rarely have direct correlation.
(not to be pedantic -- i still get it)

 

[Ivy]

I don't know where you got the idea I was trying to console you, except that people always think Fs are trying to console. I simply don't see it as the problem you seem to. I also don't really see it as a values issue. In youngsters (and selected oldsters, most of whom are clinging to youth) it's practically instinctive to take whatever the mainstream adult culture has identified as undesirable and identify with it, or disidentify with that which mainstream adult culture has identified as desirable.

 

[Ivy]

I'm trying to remember the time when I was diagnosed with ADD. I seem to remember feeling like it was a relief. Not because I thought it was cool to have a problem (and, as I said before, I've come to think of it as less of a problem and more of an unfortunate incongruence between my strengths and the most culturally valued strengths). More that I was glad to have an explanation of why certain things had always been so difficult for me. I wonder if the people who seemed envious of your diagnosis simply wished for a piece of paper explaining themselves like you supposedly had.

 

[Nocapszy]

I don't know where you got the idea I was trying to console you, except that people always think Fs are trying to console.

Most of them will grow out of this.

I said almost.

I simply don't see it as the problem you seem to.

When did I say that it was a problem? I've only so far asked questions/challenged theories.

I also don't really see it as a values issue. In youngsters (and selected oldsters, most of whom are clinging to youth) it's practically instinctive to take whatever the mainstream adult culture has identified as undesirable and identify with it

Well I admit I have done very little research on the topic, but as far as I know, "bein' a rebel" wasn't cool to the kids 'til like the 60s or... I dunno what time period, but pretty recently. That is to say, I think it's cultural.
If you take a different culture for instance, like the Amish, you notice that they don't really experience much of this.

or disidentify with that which mainstream adult culture has identified as desirable.

Honestly, I've never seen this. Not as an age-wide thing. For the most part I've seen the opposite.
Maybe that was just your clique's schtick?

Oh well. No coincidences in our data sets.

 

[Nocapszy]

It's highly frustrating that I can't call up any of the other examples of this kind of behavior...

I'll sleep on it and try to bring up some more context.

 

[Ivy]

I said almost.

When did I say that it was a problem? I've only so far asked questions/challenged theories.

I guess I got the idea you thought it was problematic when you wrote that aside about the disasters in store for us when today's young folks becoming engineers and magistrates or whatever.

Well I admit I have done very little research on the topic, but as far as I know, "bein' a rebel" wasn't cool to the kids 'til like the 60s or... I dunno what time period, but pretty recently. That is to say, I think it's cultural.

If you take a different culture for instance, like the Amish, you notice that they don't really experience much of this.

Buh? The Amish have a rite based on this very thing. Rumspringa I think it's called. They systematically allow the youth to leave the fold to rebel for a year or so, and then return (or not).

• I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. (Hesiod)
• What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them? (Plato)
• Children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. (Attributed to Socrates by Plato)
• The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior, and dress. (Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

 

[Nocapszy]

I guess I got the idea you thought it was problematic when you wrote that aside about the disasters in store for us when today's young folks becoming engineers and magistrates or whatever.

Well this doesn't really matter...

Buh? The Amish have a rite based on this very thing. Rumspringa I think it's called. They systematically allow the youth to leave the fold to rebel for a year or so, and then return (or not).

They're obviously coming back...

• I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. (Hesiod)
• What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them? (Plato)
• Children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. (Attributed to Socrates by Plato)
• The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior, and dress. (Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

To begin with, these are not likely universal observations.
Second, what kids do (they only do what they think they can get away with) has nothing to do with what they say.
Third, in my experience, it's not nearly as bad as this.
I swear I've only heard a few kids preaching anti-conformity/counter-authority creed and those kids wear all black and too much eyeliner. Never really seen it practiced. A few freak incidents, but outside of that, the worst I've seen is like... drug abuse and alcohol abuse. Not exactly rebellious -- that stuff actually does something for you. Maybe it's attributed to rebellion on some level, but a minor role compared to the euphoria they cause.

But I haven't seen anything truly rebellious, nor any legitimate support of defying anything mainstream.
Further I see most kids actually picking on the anti-conformity groups. That is to say, they seem to be in favor of the ordinary and in a state of staunch disapproval (compared to these great thinkers' experience) of anything more than reasonable deviance.

Like I said, I think we have incongruent data sets.
Must just be my good ol' town.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

They're obviously coming back...

So do our people in a sense. They reach a point in their lives where they no longer get a kick out of showing off things that are supposed to be abberations (or at least don't consider it a big enough pay off any more), and instead start becoming rank and file office workers and laborers, etc.. Just like the way the Amish kids turn into those mild, old, dime a dozen Amish adults.

EDIT: Though, in response to Ivy, rebelious youth is not culturally universal. Some culture (look to tribes here) see a person as going straight from child to adult, often via a rite, that does not involve and self-searching or social defiance at all. It's like this: be a kid, do what you have to to pass the rite, you're and adult now and here's your role. Adolescence does not exist.

 

[Lexicon]

I think I've made this thread before but I can't be bothered to look it up and I don't remember anything I might use for a keyword. Anyway, I've given it some more thought so it's time to reopen the subject.

I've noticed a few things which were, in the original sense to which I was accustomed, inherently negative traits but these are things which are, apparently, socially palatable.

Probably the most common example is "ADD."
I won't get into what a joke ADHD is right now -- that's not the focus here.

I'm just wondering why so many people say about themselves that they're afflicted by ADHD, in such a bragging tone.
I know the superficial reason -- it's "cool" to have ADD.
It is. I told people I had ADD, and all of a sudden I had people around me talking about ADD and telling stories 'proving' their ADHDdom as though it were some kind of an achievement. I compare this actually to nationalism -- being proud of something that you are and can't change, rather than something you've achieved.

I, though, had the ultimate trophy -- a legitimate doctor's note indicating that I was officially diseased and disorderly.
I was the cool shit in high school as long as anyone was talking or thinking about ADHD.

I couldn't understand it.

What is so cool about having a problem?

At first I wondered whether it was just something to blame for failure. That's what I thought back then. I figured that it wasn't that they thought I was cool, only that they envied me: That they were jealous and hoped it was contagious.

But there was a whole other clique of students who were (as it seemed) deliberate failures. In actuality, they just didn't care much about school, as long as they could get their rocks off or get it on the rocks. And they could. These were kids who didn't see their academic shortcomings as problems, and therefore had no problems to blame ADHD on.

But yet, they still claimed to have it.

So then, from there I figured that it was indeed a Socially Palatable aspect of personality.

Without diverting your attention too far, does it not seem as though this culture is fucked? That is, as soon as these eighth grade alcoholics and tenth grade adderall burnouts become magistrates and engineers, the sky will turn brown like the shit going into and coming out of the American public schools.


Anyway, I'll move on to another example.

Actually, I won't. I'd say the principle is pretty well lain out, so I'll move right into my questions:

How did this happen?
When did it happen? Were generations prior to this one in this habit?

Hmm.. I'm not entirely sure how to address this, or where to start.. but I'll give it a go..


To clarify, you basically take issue with the concept that ADD/ADHD is considered socially acceptable, and dare I say, "cool," correct?

This assumption's been based on your experiences in school/other social interactions, right? I mean.. not to disagree with your overall perspective, but individual experience alone isn't necessarily sufficient data in of itself to draw your conclusions regarding an entire population. Offers an awfully narrow scope for analysis in retrospect. But hey, maybe I'm only picking apart your basis for your position, not the position itself.
Your guesses as to why people would find it cool seem reasonable to me, based on your observations, however.



But, er.. anyway, on to the principles behind your post, and your questions..

Actually.. I'm not entirely certain what your objective is here.

I mean, it's true.. a lot of teens, and adults for that matter, talk openly about ADD/ADHD. Some joke about it, some relate, others wear it like a badge... a big, shiny, beeping, blinking badge..

And you're wondering how/why/when the latter came into effect?

I'm not sure it's a question of when. Which accounts for the how and why, perhaps.
Simply put, things like this always have been.
Perhaps prior generations didn't popularize, the, uhm.. 'excessive acceptance' (say THAT 10 times fast.. :rolli of this illness specifically.. but it's really all the same BS in the end.
Think about it. Is ADD/ADHD the only condition people handle this way in a social context?
Hardly.


I think what it boils down to, is that, the majority strive for a sense of unity, internal/external validation, and whathaveyou. Oftentimes they subscribe to whatever seems favorable, what they can relate to, or want, or what they're told to want [unfortunately]. Time passes, certain things that were taboo to do or even talk about, aren't, anymore.. This isn't just limited to external fashion trends, or music hits, or the latest dance. It's about the internal as well, but I s'pose that goes without saying. Ideas. Ethics. Values. Religions. Conduct. How many other miscellaneous behaviors or conditions (with seemingly counterproductive/negative connotations) have become increasingly socially acceptable over time...

...and how many of those seem absolutley senseless to take pride in, overall?
Quite a few.

That said.. kids or adults insinuating ADD/ADHD is cool doesn't really stand out to me, any more than practically everything else people chatter on/brag about. Trends just flow and tie together. When those fluctuations actually occurred seems insignificant. This is just another silly, smaller portion of the bigger picture, the core issue.



..The core issue being that social palatability, or coolness
... is just fucking stupid.
(sorry- my ADHD kicked in and I'm giving up now. I figger you get my point, to sorta build off yours, not necessarily invalidate it.)

Hmm. Maybe I'll go back and fix this later.
Meh. Til then..
-end

 

[Nocapszy]

Hmm.. I'm not entirely sure how to address this, or where to start.. but I'll give it a go..


To clarify, you basically take issue with the concept that ADD/ADHD is considered socially acceptable, and dare I say, "cool," correct?

I don't really take issue with it.
Ivy thought I did too, but I don't.
I guess I'm just trigger happy.

This assumption's been based on your experiences in school/other social interactions, right? I mean.. not to disagree with your overall perspective, but individual experience alone isn't necessarily sufficient data in of itself to draw your conclusions regarding an entire population.

Well obviously... my experiences don't even account for the entire population I'm familiar with. It would be silly to assume that my environment was so different from every other in the country though.

Offers an awfully narrow scope for analysis in retrospect.

So do random samples, but no one complains about those.

The concept still remains be it local or international.

But, er.. anyway, on to the principles behind your post, and your questions..

Actually.. I'm not entirely certain what your objective is here.

I mean, it's true.. a lot of teens, and adults for that matter, talk openly about ADD/ADHD. Some joke about it, some relate, others wear it like a badge... a big, shiny, beeping, blinking badge..

And you're wondering how/why/when the latter came into effect?

The how is of less interest to me.
"Why?" is a more compelling question, and is actually subsidiary to "how?" understand?

I'm not sure it's a question of when. Which accounts for the how and why, perhaps.
Simply put, things like this always have been.

Then it must be an axiom of human psychology: Which one? Or does it stand alone?

Think about it. Is ADD/ADHD the only condition people handle this way in a social context?
Hardly.

Indeed. I said this already.

I've heard this countless times, "I'm such a scatterbrain" and from there stories and jokes continue.
From an outside perspective (mine always was outside... I couldn't let myself identify with this insipidity) it kind of looks like group therapy.

Maybe that's where they got the idea in the first place.

I think what it boils down to, is that, the majority strive for a sense of unity, internal/external validation, and whathaveyou.

Oh I see what you did there -- that's like a shotgun: You're bound to hit something.

Oftentimes they subscribe to whatever seems favorable, what they can relate to, or want, or what they're told to want [unfortunately].

Yeah... see this is what I was looking for.

I know this phenomenon is and can be caused by an array of different actions - I just thought maybe I hadn't accounted for all of them yet.

Imagine that; Nocap dropping his veil of conceit for a moment.

That said.. kids or adults insinuating ADD/ADHD is cool doesn't really stand out to me, any more than practically everything else people chatter on/brag about.

Absolutely not. I never said it did. Like I said it was just one example. It just happened to be the most immediately available.

 

[Nocapszy]

So do our people in a sense.

This didn't really have anything to do with what I said...

EDIT: Though, in response to Ivy, rebelious youth is not culturally universal. Some culture (look to tribes here) see a person as going straight from child to adult, often via a rite, that does not involve and self-searching or social defiance at all. It's like this: be a kid, do what you have to to pass the rite, you're and adult now and here's your role. Adolescence does not exist.

That's what I'm saying.
It's cultural.
Or more specifically, it's the mindset induced by the culture.

Besides that, rebellion or identifying with counter-culture has very little to do with AD[H]D. It's not non-mainstream and it's doesn't account for rebel behavior.

Maybe these kid's have misinterpreted it and think it does (wtf?) but I doubt it.

Anyway, the idea of being mediocre to less-than-satisfactory seems to be appealing to the public these days.

I'm not going to say I'm one of those right wing idiots raving about the value of "a day's work for a day's pay" or "value of a dollar" but this whole thing seems pretty obvious to me.

I mentioned a moment ago about people laughing about how "scatterbrained" (whatever the fuck that means) they are, or how ADHD they are... "Oh I'm such a horrible driver" and on and on...

Maybe we've got too many eggs in the modesty basket?
[Easter pun]

I'll keep an extra careful eye out in the near future to see how often this crap comes up.
I'll keep a log and everything and percentages... maybe even go xkcd on you guys and make a graph.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Do mean you mean like how it's kind cool to have eating disorder when you are in high school? This is probably just a girl thing, but I think an applicable example.

 

[Ivy]

Based on what nocaps has said I suspect the girl tendency to be like "Oh I look so fat," "no way I'm the one who looks fat!" is more of what he's talking about.

 

[Hirsch63]

....and instead start becoming rank and file office workers and laborers, etc.. Just like the way the Amish kids turn into those mild, old, dime a dozen Amish adults.

EDIT: Though, in response to Ivy, rebelious youth is not culturally universal. Some culture (look to tribes here) see a person as going straight from child to adult, often via a rite, that does not involve and self-searching or social defiance at all. It's like this: be a kid, do what you have to to pass the rite, you're and adult now and here's your role. Adolescence does not exist.

Ananbaptist culture is predicated on the informed adult choice of baptism. Amish children are deliberately free to misbehave in any number of ways before they choose to join the church. Of course they are subject to adult discilpine as well. I believe that they loose about 25% of their children to the "world" annually....but they still have a lot of kids. Amish Society by Hostetler is the standard text I believe.

I lived some time in Pennsylvania Amish country a few years back an ther was a case of a local motorcycle gang recruiting a couple of Amish lads as dealers it was a suprising bit of news. And the young folks have very large "secret" outdoor beer+ parties fairly regularly.

And to Magic, I take your point but I believe that what you are pointing out would apply to generally smaller closed societies essentially tribal groups where all are known to one another throughout their lives?

As Nocap was writing about seeming pride in what should be considered an unfortunate diagnosis....perhaps in our watered down dis-connected culture this diagnosis represents a sort of belonging a label that tells you what you are? Does this full disclosure habit extend to other disorders or diseases? Or is it just ADHD? I don't think it is out of line for someone to share information like this with you in private conversation if it should come up as a subject...but someone basically wearing a badge proclaiming their afflicted status proudly? Perhps it came out of the ideas I heard about growing up where speaking about your (serious, life threatening)) medical condition was simply not done; you kept it in the family if even that. As I recall there was a belief that this made a sufferer even more a victim of the disease, to deteriorate slowly and alone in shame for burdening family, being weak etc. So along with the "patients rights" movement came a more open discussion of maladies....to the point where support groups were formed and open discussion ensued. Perhaps this is just some unforseen or deliberate manifestation of that? Of course for those few who feel that their disorder allows them some sort of status, the idea that there are others who might diffuse the impact of their suffering by rendering it all too commonplace may be frustrating. This may lead to a battle of acronym one-upsmanship.