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  1. #11
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Aristotle taught that those who did paid work were no better than slaves or animals.

    And it was protestantism and the bourgeois revolutions that taught work was fulfilling.

    But why should we take any notice of Aristotle?

    Well, Aristotle informed Christianity, through Thomas Aquinas and the Renaissance, right up to the Reformatioin.

    So not only do we today try hopelessly to make work fulfilling, but we also try to make marriage fulfilling as well.

    But it is a hopeless task in both cases.

    Perhaps the Renaissance aristocrats were right - we can only find fulfullment in amateur pursuits like hobies and love affairs.

    The very word, 'amateur', comes from the latin for love. And everyone loves to have a love affair - even the lovers. And all the world loves a lover.

    What do you think?
    I think it is amazing the range of perception humans can hold towards certain activities. In a weird way I find it reassuring that we have the capacity to reinterpret our circumstance. Societies require an exchange of resources whether this involves employment or relationships. Being paid for work means you are involved in exchange with other members of your society. Maybe that makes a person an animal, but I suspect we fit that category long before we were paid in cash.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Going to have to disagree Victor. I see [and have had] fulfillment in the implementation and execution of my thoughts and actions, not to mention fulfillment in the exclusive companionship of another human being.

    Saying you cannot find actualization and worth in either just tells me you haven't experienced them, only terrible illusions of those concepts, which is indicated by your contempt.
    Maybe, but different people have different needs too.

  3. #13
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Just a side track, I've seen people express their distaste for Victor's views, but I don't see why. Maybe I've missed something.

    Equating paid work with slavery would be a distasteful thing to do in a less elaborate language than Victor just did. But he did that just finely.

    Paid work and marriage, as I take them in this context, both represent a level of commitment on one's part.

    Restriction of one's liberties in hope of gaining equitable profits for their sacrifices.

    But paid work, really? For what duration? For what conditions? Many a pay comes with more freedom on the part of the worker as compared to the freedom of the employer.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #14
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Maybe, but different people have different needs too.
    Needs or desires? I think people can confuse the two at times.



  5. #15
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Needs or desires? I think people can confuse the two at times.
    Does an introvert need or desire frequent solitude? Does a monk desire sexual intercourse or does he need it? What/who else but our personalities can dictate our needs?

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Just a side track, I've seen people express their distaste for Victor...
    But it is well deserved.

    I express my distaste for them and they express their distaste for me.

    It is mutual. And it is reciprocal.

    But with one caveat - their distaste for me is a reaction - a reaction to my distaste.

    They are reactionaries.

    Were I to like them, they would probably like me in return - even their liking would be a reaction.

    No, I like the freshly minted, the immediate feeling, intellectual integrity and moral courage.

    The rest is not to my taste.

    And unsurprisingly, they don't like the taste of me.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post

    But with one caveat - their distaste for me is a reaction - a reaction to my distaste.
    They are reactionaries.
    And, YOU AREN'T?

    I'm guessing at your response, sir -
    Victor: Oh, but, who amongst us are not reactionaries?
    To live in this world is to react.
    How do we separate what is an action and what is a reaction?
    How do we determine a beginning?


    Yeah, try another one...

    Btw...it's called being the one to start a thread...of course, everything else will be reactionary...as they're REPLYING to you. You know, when they hit that big blue, "Post REPLY" button???

    You're reactionary just as often as the rest of us "pedestrian" crowd, actually in ALL threads that you have not started and pressed that big blue "Post REPLY" button to.

    Stop hiding behind pretty words that amount to nothing. Sleight of words are only for those whose ego cannot accept their incomprehension and confusion of you so you can convince them to find "meaning" and beauty in the vacuous illusion of your prolix words. Smoke and mirrors....

    Try not to reaffirm your worth by holding up the badge/screaming for the title, of 'misunderstood'.

  8. #18
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Personally I find you very musical Victor ... I enjoy the lyrical expression of your point of view. Admittedly, it is likely easier for me to do so coming from the NF side of the house.

    WRT your original post, I have felt similarly about work, and the constraints imposed by it. But marriage ... I would rather a deep personal fulfillment with one than flitting about with lover after lover.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post

    Perhaps the Renaissance aristocrats were right - we can only find fulfilment in amateur pursuits like hobbies and love affairs.

    What do you think?
    I've been thinking about it the last couple of days. I think whether or not you can find fulfilment in work and marriage or in hobbies and love affairs comes down to whether you feel depth of experience or breadth of experience is the best path to self actualisation/ fulfilment.

    Personally I feel depth of experience is more important so you can achieve fulfilment through work and marriage.

    *I'm not sure if breadth is the right word. I mean differing experiences. Shallow experience in a lot of areas.

  10. #20
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    I agree that paid work is akin to enslavement. I prefer to do the kind of work I enjoy, when I want to, whether that makes me poor or not.

    As for long term commitment like marriage, I disagree with Victor's assessment, only because I find this kind of arrangement fulfilling, and I find open-ended romantic experiences with no commitment overall disappointing and leaving me with an empty feeling.

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